Lotus Elan

Oversteer on corners

PostPost by: pauljones » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:48 pm

Vince,

Sorry i didnt mean to poach your idea. I didnt actually see it so my appologize. At least that makes two of us with that idea.

Its amazing how many on the forum are actually trying to offer assistance, thats what makes this such a great place to be.
Kick the tyres and light them fires...!!!!!!!
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PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:51 pm

pauljones wrote:Its amazing how many on the forum are actually trying to offer assistance, thats what makes this such a great place to be.


Amen to that...
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PostPost by: billwill » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:14 pm

You can get tungsten carbide hole saws, builders use them for cutting holes for pipes in walls.
It will be very difficult to control without the pilot drill in the centre.

I used a 6" dia one a few years ago to make a hole for my kitchen above-hob ventilator fan a few years ago.
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PostPost by: JonB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:09 pm

billwill wrote:It will be very difficult to control without the pilot drill in the centre.


In general, I agree. However the proposal is to have the end of the tube acting as the pilot. This will work if I have a close enough fitting saw (I think).
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PostPost by: 10kph » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:12 pm

Sadly the car is a long way from oversteer now.
The bashed end shown in your photo will never pull through the tube and quite likely the section inside the tube will also be splayed making a tight fit.The pin has more chance of turning than a straight pull, once turning the oil will lubricate and it will move sideways.
Heat is always the answer for siezed /rusted bolts. In this case where you have tried heat at the ends and not suceeded then direct heat to the tube inside the 3inch vacuum crossmember is needed.
It may sound drastic but witha grinderette and thin cutting disc remove a 2 inch suare from the end of the crossmember tube. The inner tube can be seen and heat applied from an oxy/ acet or oxy/ butane torch to get it really hot ( red )and then turn the pin with pipe stilsons.....it will twist and eventualli slide.Move that bad end outwards and cut off cleanly with the cutting disc and pull backwards.
The hole cut in the end of the chassis tube will not weaken it and can have the sectioned removed welded back in for an invisible repair.
hope all goes well otherwise when is the car for sale ?
Tony
Ps. The last resort is to remove the pin and small tube by grinding the weld flush with the 3 inch tube but I would make a small jig for accurate location of that small tube before cutting off......Just incase all goes wrong
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PostPost by: david.g.chapman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:40 pm

I've just seen this post. Gosh - what a horrible problem!

I have been scratching my head for a few minutes. This is all I can think of that I would try:

1. Cut off the pin flush with the tube at the end that had been peened over.

2. Drill the pin out to a depth of 6-7 mm inside the tube at that end. It does not matter too much if you go into the tube with your drill, as long as the pin is removed completely to that depth. I think there will still be enough undamaged tube left to locate a new pin.

3. Find a piece of steel rod about 20mm long to go snugly into your new hole to act as a drift. If a bolt can be found that's the right size that would be better. Then mighty hammer blows on the drift/bolt with a club hammer. The tube locates the drift to keep it in place, so the force goes where it should go.

4. Failing that, putting penetrating fluid in the hole and bashing that with the drift might produce enough hydraulic pressure to force it deeper into the seized cylinder of rust you have. Then more blows until something gives or you get tired out.

Best of Luck,

Dave Chapman.
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:05 pm

pauljones wrote:Vince,

Sorry i didnt mean to poach your idea. I didnt actually see it so my appologize. At least that makes two of us with that idea.

Its amazing how many on the forum are actually trying to offer assistance, thats what makes this such a great place to be.


No apology necessary Paul. I wasn't having a pop. Just stating that Jon has been assailed from all sides with advice.

Time to take stock and try the easy, (and reversible), things first. For instance a good drill and tap would be cheap(ish). That plus the "pressure" tube would be simple. Maybe useless but worth a try.
Just don't buy "far eastern" toffee taps. I once bought a cheap set of Engineering High Speed Drills.
They wouldn't drill mahogany. Bottom of the box it stated "all sized approximate." Classy kit!

Anything to keep it from Peterborough. :)
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PostPost by: Bigbaldybloke » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:38 pm

I?ve a question regarding cutting out the whole spindle tube. I?ve just had a close look at my very early Spyder chassis and on mine the spindle tube is just welded direct to the front cross member, no oval shaped gusset plates welded on as in Jon?s pictures. So the question is how have Spyder assembled these spindle tubes, are they first welded into the chassis and then the gusset plate welded over the top of that, meaning there are two welds at each end, or is there just the weld to the gusset plate and the tube is not welded direct to the front cross member. I don?t know the answer and suspect only Spyder can answer this. Need to know as it will make a big difference to how much work Jon has to do if he goes ahead with the hole saw or grinder. I suspect t Spyder added the gusset as they found it needed strengthening in that area after several years of this design of chassis being in service. If it was me making them, I guess I would already have a jig to position the spindles in place and weld them, so I wouldn?t change that I would just weld the oval gusset plate on top as an extra, so there would be two welds each side to cut through, but that?s just my educated guess, which makes it doubly difficult to remove the spindles. Anyone know for sure how they are welded? The actual welding may have deformed the spindle tube from new unless they cleaned it out with a drill or reamer, hence the spindle May have been a tight fit from day one.
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PostPost by: Craven » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:49 am

2 seat Elan NOT a +2

p1020643.jpg and
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PostPost by: Bigbaldybloke » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:18 am

Hmm, good picture, from that it looks like the gusset is close fitting to the cross member so there probably isn?t a weld between the tube and cross member, only tube to gusset. The weld may have possibly penetrated through the gusset into the cross member, but not too much of a problem if using the hole saw method, a bit more challenging with a grinder.
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PostPost by: JonB » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:21 pm

I think the reason the gusset is there is to allow the tube to be adjusted in the jig prior to welding. You couldn't do that with the tube alone as it would lead to gaps where you needed to weld.

Now, as I cannot weld a nut to my spindle thanks to me not being able to weld at all, I ordered a stud extractor in the hopes I can use it to apply rotational torque to the spindle.

This one in fact: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173146694645

Dunno if it will help but it wasn't too expensive.
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PostPost by: Bigbaldybloke » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:02 pm

Hi Jon, that should work as long as its good quality and the gripping wheel is of harder material than the spindle. We certainly found them useful when I used to work overhauling gas turbines and needed to undo a stripped stud or similar.

Not sure about the gusset being to allow adjustment of the spindle tube position, as the early chassis didn't have them and the jig should hold the tube accurately while it was welded, but really it doesn't matter why its there, it just is and that's it!
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PostPost by: JonB » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:13 pm

I suppose I could ask Spyder...

I am not entirely confident that this tool will be tough enough. It's not a SnapOn or Teng, but I'm going to try it anyway.

Obviously when the temperature is above -4C!
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PostPost by: mbell » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:55 pm

The Gusset is there due to a number of chassis failure in that area on early spyder chassis without the gusset.
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PostPost by: Bigbaldybloke » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:11 pm

So, should I get my early Spyder chassis without the gusset plates modified, the chassis is circa 1985 but has never been back on the road since installed?
Hopefully on the road in the next few months.
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