Lotus Elan

+2 Alloy Wheel Collar Needed !

PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:26 pm

Thx Russ & Paul. Confirms mine are probably steel only then. I see Paul's show evidence of a similar broad contact area with the wheel and the fine line on the outside where the steel wheel cup rolls over and looses contact with the nut. Russ, think you are right that new ones would be better.

Thx for the links Sarto. Wow, 200 to 220 lb ft torque. I guess I'm not over tightening. :) I guess the eBay one is perfect for Jon (the original poster) if he just needs one for a stock alloy. :)
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PostPost by: Gordon Sauer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:16 am

Here is another pic of Brand Lotus alloy wheel and octagon spinner with orange paint marking contact area. Mine also say "steel wheels only" but I've not seen other octagons--this is all on my +2S 130. Contact patch seems to match the slight wear indication I got from using them originally on steel wheels and upon viewing, it seems cut out area is similar on both wheels. Not driven to know if they are going to come off! Gordon Sauer
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PostPost by: Robbie693 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:47 am

Not sure if this is any help but here's a NOS nut I bought a while ago. No reference to the alloy or steel usage:
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:44 am

6 used undo octagonal and two new 3 ear spinners ALL for steel wheels.

more undo spinners.jpg and
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PostPost by: Grant K » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:23 am

I have 1 octagonal nut marked 'alloy wheels only', but I can't see any difference in shape, angle or wheel contact compared with my original 3 eared spinners.

The S/S rings/inserts in my minilites are flush or slightly below the surface. I wouldn't want them any thicker or protruding more, as due to the thicker minilite wheel there are already fewer threads engaged, compared to fit with original steel wheels. The spinner ears just clear the minilite wheel spokes, but they seem to fit & tighten up OK. I wasn't aware of any fit concerns until I read the earlier posts.

I am interested in hearing the collective wisdom on what the correct spinners/inserts are for minilites, but I'm not aware of any alternatives.

Regards
Grant
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:38 pm

Grant K wrote:I wouldn't want them any thicker or protruding more, as due to the thicker minilite wheel there are already fewer threads engaged, compared to fit with original steel wheels.


Although a bit counter-intuitive there are fewer threads engaged with steel wheels. The shape in which the center section of the steel wheel is pressed actually moves the point at which the nut contacts the wheel further away from the drive peg flange than with the Minilites. As has been brought up many times in this thread the problem with alloy wheels is that the knock on nut gets very close to bottoming on the hub before the wheel is properly loaded against the hub. Try it yourself, lay a straight edge across the back side of a steel and an alloy wheel where the wheels touch the peg drive flange. Then measure the distance from the straight edge to the surface that the knock-on nut pulls up against.
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:40 pm

Grant K wrote:I have 1 octagonal nut marked 'alloy wheels only', but I can't see any difference in shape, angle or wheel contact compared with my original 3 eared spinners.


Grant,
I see what you mean, leaves me baffled.
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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:32 pm

CBUEB1771 wrote:
Grant K wrote:I have 1 octagonal nut marked 'alloy wheels only', but I can't see any difference in shape, angle or wheel contact compared with my original 3 eared spinners.


Grant,
I see what you mean, leaves me baffled.


Could it have beeen a different material, or grade of, specified for contact with alloy wheels? (The chrome plating on the contact area (nut) hasn't lasted as well as the spinner...)

Cheers - Richard
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:07 pm

Robbie693 wrote:Not sure if this is any help but here's a NOS nut I bought a while ago. No reference to the alloy or steel usage:


At first glance I missed the humor embedded in these photos. The label on the box says "hexagonal type" when in fact the nut is octagonal.
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PostPost by: Robbie693 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:21 pm

CBUEB1771 wrote:
Robbie693 wrote:Not sure if this is any help but here's a NOS nut I bought a while ago. No reference to the alloy or steel usage:


At first glance I missed the humor embedded in these photos. The label on the box says "hexagonal type" when in fact the nut is octagonal.



:lol:
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:30 pm

I was reminded by a list member of Kiyoshi Hamai's involvement in the original Panasport design. There is an article on the GGLS site here that explains his involvement:

http://gglotus.org/ggtech/elan-panasport/elanwhls.htm


Thinking the attached drawings could be a useful starting point if we opt to have revised beveled profile thrust rings made up for the Minilites.

Can someone familiar with the Panasports confirm the shape/profile of the centre hole in the wheel itself and the corresponding Thrust Ring inner profile? I note Kiyoshi's Thrust Ring drawing shows the inner profile as a square step of 0.500" and o.438". Do these dimensions correspond to currently supplied Panasports? Is the wheel centre hole arced or stepped?

I would have expected a arced profile here to match an arced wheel centre hole? I don't have Panasports to hand; just expected arced profile to avoid stress and expected it to be the same as the Minilite? As the Minilite wheel centre hole is arced, would it be for sure required to have a matching arc on the custom Thrust Ring? If Panasport matches a step to an arc, it would certainly simplify machining. :)
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:32 pm

The "ALLOY ONLY" octagonal nut looks like steel, (any chance of seeing if it's magnetic) not brass/bronze alloy. also there is not as much conical taper length. Maybe there was a Ally-chrome/bronze electrolysis that Lotus was trying to avoid. All of this is just a guess but maybe there is a greater point loading with the smaller contact surface of the "ALLOY ONLY" octagonal nut. I don't know but I think I am safe with my 4 lug nut bolt on Panasport wheels. I'll worry about the JAP magna wheels if I get to use them.

Gary

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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:20 pm

piss-ant wrote:The "ALLOY ONLY" octagonal nut looks like steel, (any chance of seeing if it's magnetic) not brass/bronze alloy. also there is not as much conical taper length. Maybe there was a Ally-chrome/bronze electrolysis that Lotus was trying to avoid. All of this is just a guess but maybe there is a greater point loading with the smaller contact surface of the "ALLOY ONLY" octagonal nut. I don't know but I think I am safe with my 4 lug nut bolt on Panasport wheels. I'll worry about the JAP magna wheels if I get to use them.


Gary,
Interesting observation about the "alloy wheels only" nut, perhaps Grant can put a magnet to his example. If bolt on hubs were available for the +2 that would make a different story. Peg drive Panasports trouble me because I have never seen one that has more than three of the five peg holes have a complete profile. Generally at least two of the peg holes break out of the casting.
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PostPost by: khamai » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:35 pm

Hi all,
Stu sent me a PM about this thread so I thought I'd chime with a post rather than respond to Stu's PM (no offence Stu!).

The Panasport K/O for Elan/Elan+2 is a 5" wide wheel with a 4" backside (about 28mm neg offset). The background story on these wheels can be found here - http://gglotus.org/ggtech/elan-panasport/elanwhls.htm

The thrust ring that can be seen in Sarto's post is used on the Panasport K/O for a few reasons:

1A) Moves the K/O nut outward and allows more clearance between wrench and wheels spokes when using a K/O nut
1B) Moves the K/O 3-ear nut outward so that the ears of the K/O nut clear the wheel spokes

2) Helps to spread the load on the wheel face. Keep in mind that these wheels are not purpose cast as K/Os, they are casted bolt-on wheels and machined to adapt to K/O use before the bolt-on holes are drilled.

3) Allows for the use of the steel wheel K/O nuts. Special alloy nuts are not required. Therefore the thrust ring has a chamfer that matches that of the steel wheel.

4) Eliminates the problem of the K/O nut loosening over time caused by the expansion/contraction of the alloy wheel (due to temperature changes and brake heating). On the test wheels we did not have the thrust ring and the K/O nuts came loose within a couple hundred miles of normal street driving.

And one final note, the thrust ring on the Panasport is a press fit. Wheels are machined for the thrust ring and heated then the ring is pressed into position. The ring is not made to be removed.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Kiyoshi
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:35 pm

khamai wrote:Eliminates the problem of the K/O nut loosening over time caused by the expansion/contraction of the alloy wheel (due to temperature changes and brake heating). On the test wheels we did not have the thrust ring and the K/O nuts came loose within a couple hundred miles of normal street driving.


Interesting comment, the steel wheels can deform elastically when the knock-on nut is brought up to torque. The elastic deformation allows the nut to remain tight through temperature cycling.
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