Lotus Elan

+2 Alloy Wheel Collar Needed !

PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:15 pm

piss-ant wrote:Steve Francis was the Minilite person that you may be thinking of.


Spot on Gary, it was Steve Francis.
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:33 pm

stugilmour wrote:I really want to make sure I get the Minilite fitment sorted prior to my LOG32 trip. On the way to LOG31 in Las Vegas I almost had the left rear wheel depart the car at speed!


Stu,
From what I now understand about the thrust rings and alloy wheel only knock-on nuts I think you need to sort this out quickly. Without the thrust rings I can't believe that the knock on nut is actually forcing the wheel onto the hub. From your photo it appears that the thrust ring is in place. The wheel and the thrust ring have the same curvature in that area. There is an additional complication in that Minilite changed the thickness of the thrust ring at some point in time, probably to solve the problem of knock on nuts bottoming in the hub. The two versions are shown in the photo below which I have posted before. The thinner version does not work. In an earlier thread I remember some people saying that they had shortened their hubs in a lathe by turning material off of the threaded section. This allows the knock on nut to travel further and engage the wheel and thrust ring properly.
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DSC_0002.jpg and
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:46 pm

Hi Stu, For those who use a three eared spinner and my knockoff spinner tool, I have not heard of a problem, over the years, of the tool touching the wheel on the Minilites until now and that was on the middle picture with its recess thrust ring.
My guess is that all of the three eared spinners have the same threaded section. And if the spinner bottoms out before it is fully torqued, that would be a big problem.
The octagonal spinners I can not answer. From the spinners I've seen, they all have the same beveled contact surface to the wheel. But this is a Colin Chapman car and he may have used a non beveled spinner??
Russ is correct the first picture is a Panasport wheel and the thrust ring is a permanent part of the wheel. The last pics from Russ looks like the thrust rings on the Lotus alloy 10 spoke version. And now I must assume that they are also used on the Minilites??

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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:18 pm

mac5777 wrote:And now I must assume that they are also used on the Minilites??


Sarto,
Yes, the thrust rings in my photo were both supplied by Minilite. I would be surprised if alloy wheel only knock on nuts have a conical section where they meet the thrust ring. This would result in line contact and plenty of opportunity for plastic deformation of the knock on nut in the resulting high stress area. This, in turn, would allow the nut to loosen.
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:25 pm

Russ, are the thrust rings recessed like my center picture?

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PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:29 pm

CBUEB1771 wrote:
stugilmour wrote:I really want to make sure I get the Minilite fitment sorted prior to my LOG32 trip. On the way to LOG31 in Las Vegas I almost had the left rear wheel depart the car at speed!


Stu,
From what I now understand about the thrust rings and alloy wheel only knock-on nuts I think you need to sort this out quickly. Without the thrust rings I can't believe that the knock on nut is actually forcing the wheel onto the hub. From your photo it appears that the thrust ring is in place. The wheel and the thrust ring have the same curvature in that area. There is an additional complication in that Minilite changed the thickness of the thrust ring at some point in time, probably to solve the problem of knock on nuts bottoming in the hub. The two versions are shown in the photo below which I have posted before. The thinner version does not work. In an earlier thread I remember some people saying that they had shortened their hubs in a lathe by turning material off of the threaded section. This allows the knock on nut to travel further and engage the wheel and thrust ring properly.



Thanks Russ, excellent photo and info. Really want to get this issue sorted as well.

To assist in providing correct info to John Targett, can you please confirm the profile on the outside of the thrust rings? Is it a conical bevel to match the 'standard' Lotus bevel found on both the octagonal Nader Nuts and the three eared spinners? Bonus marks if you have a pic of the centre hole with the thrust rings in place. I am directing John to this thread in my follow-up email. I will mention your pic of the thrust rings.


For reference, here is a link to another long thread regarding Sarto's tool that has lots of info on the fitment issues. Sarto is trying to make sure the thrust rings provide clearance for this tool. I am more concerned with the related issue of profile mismatch and the Nader Nut/Spinner potentially bottoming out. I posted some pics about half way down page four of the thread. One thing I have not done is check with Andy/Sean at Spyder to see if they have the correct thrust rings; Jeremy indicates his Spyder supplied 14" wheels came with thrust rings of some sort.

elan-f14/knockoff-spinner-tool-t14088-45.html
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:07 pm

mac5777 wrote:Russ, are the thrust rings recessed like my center picture?

Sarto


Sarto,
The thinner of the two rings in my photo sit a bit recessed in the wheel as in your photo. The thicker ring is closer to flush with the wheel or maybe a bit proud of it. I'll be able to take and post more photos in a few days.
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PostPost by: pauljones » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:12 pm

Russ,

You have a pm.

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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:13 pm

stugilmour wrote:To assist in providing correct info to John Targett, can you please confirm the profile on the outside of the thrust rings? Is it a conical bevel to match the 'standard' Lotus bevel found on both the octagonal Nader Nuts and the three eared spinners? Bonus marks if you have a pic of the centre hole with the thrust rings in place. I am directing John to this thread in my follow-up email. I will mention your pic of the thrust rings.


Stu,
I only have that one photo on my computer at this time. If you cut the thrust ring in half you would see basically a constant thickness, very much like the end of a Weber carb inlet trumpet. The curvature of the "outside" of the thrust ring where it contacts the nut and the curvature of the wheel where it contacts the "inside" of the thrust ring are the same profile.
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:29 pm

Thanks Russ. I took a better look at my setup based on your comments. I took a better look at my set-up, and it is as described by Russ; the Minilite thrust rings are in place on my wheels. :oops: The Nader Nuts are not bottoming. I tried the Nader Nut without the thrust ring, and I can't tell for sure if it is bottoming, but it is certainly close.

I just heard back from John Targett. Minilite UK confirms stainless thrust rings are included with all Lotus peg drive wheels. They are approx. $35 a piece plus shipping if purchased separately. They also say they are designed to fit with the stock spinners. They are only aware of two Lotus fitments, the stock road car one they have provided to me and the 26R. I don't know anything about 26R hubs, so can't add anything there. They told John that talk of alloy vs. steel profiles is mistaken and that they are the same. I just don't know what to think now.

For reference, here are some pics of my Minilite thrust rings. Still a bit concerned that the outside profile of the provided thrust rings is a curved profile. Witness marks on my thrust rings and Nader Nut show a line of contact rather than the wider profile contact with my stock steel wheels.

Wondering if I should get the Minilite rings machined to a bevel corresponding to the Nader Nut, similar to Sarto's pic of a Panasport? Russ, are you happy with the way your's fit and is it similar to mine? I take it you were also wondering about the Minilite profile fitting the Nader Nut.
Attachments
Stock steel wheel.jpg and
This is the stock Lotus steel wheel. You can see the witness marks (rust colour band) from the contact with the Nader Nut.
Nader Nut beveled profile.jpg and
This rather poor pic is to show the Nader Nut profile. My car originally came with Lotus steel wheels. This profile matches well with the stock steel wheels, with a contact area that is wider than with the Minilites. If you look closely, you can see the thin line where the Minilite curved profile is contacting the bevel on the Nader Nut. The other thin line on the outside of the bevel is the edge where the steel wheel profile lands.
Minilite thrust ring outside profile.jpg and
The outside internal profile of the Minilite thrust ring. Like Russ says, it is a similar profile to the inside of the thrust ring. Appears the rings are to prevent bottoming and provide a stainless steel face for the Nader Nut/Spinner to contact, rather than to change the profile. Without the thrust ring spacer in place I don't think I could get my octagonal wrench past the car fender.
Inside profile of Minilite thrust ring.jpg and
Outside profile of the Minilite thrust ring is a definite curve rather than a cone shape. This matches poorly to the Nader Nut.
Last edited by stugilmour on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:22 pm

stugilmour wrote:They are only aware of two Lotus fitments, the stock road car one they have provided to me and the 26R. I don't know anything about 26R hubs, so can't add anything there. They told John that talk of alloy vs. steel profiles is mistaken and that they are the same. I just don't know what to think now.

For reference, here are some pics of my Minilite thrust rings. Still a bit concerned that the outside profile of the provided thrust rings is a curved profile. Witness marks on my thrust rings and Nader Nut show a line of contact rather than the wider profile contact with my stock steel wheels.

Wondering if I should get the Minilite rings machined to a bevel corresponding to the Nader Nut?


Stu,
I have learned quite a bit since this thread started. It seems that Minilite has essentially copied the thrust ring and knock on nut configuration that Lotus used with the Brand Lotus wheels. Minilite can say what they want about there being only one nut configuration for road-going cars. This flies in the face of what is stated in the workshop manual and that there are nuts that are clearly marked for "alloy wheels only". It appears that both types of knock on nut have the same conical seating face which I don't think is a great idea with the resulting line contact with the thrust ring. There is not enough material in the Minilite thrust ring to generate much of a conical surface. Making new ones that are shaped much like the Panasport thrust ring might be a better approach.
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:34 pm

CBUEB1771 wrote:
stugilmour wrote:They are only aware of two Lotus fitments, the stock road car one they have provided to me and the 26R. I don't know anything about 26R hubs, so can't add anything there. They told John that talk of alloy vs. steel profiles is mistaken and that they are the same. I just don't know what to think now.

For reference, here are some pics of my Minilite thrust rings. Still a bit concerned that the outside profile of the provided thrust rings is a curved profile. Witness marks on my thrust rings and Nader Nut show a line of contact rather than the wider profile contact with my stock steel wheels.

Wondering if I should get the Minilite rings machined to a bevel corresponding to the Nader Nut?


Stu,
I have learned quite a bit since this thread started. It seems that Minilite has essentially copied the thrust ring and knock on nut configuration that Lotus used with the Brand Lotus wheels. Minilite can say what they want about there being only one nut configuration for road-going cars. This flies in the face of what is stated in the workshop manual and that there are nuts that are clearly marked for "alloy wheels only". It appears that both types of knock on nut have the same conical seating face which I don't think is a great idea with the resulting line contact with the thrust ring. There is not enough material in the Minilite thrust ring to generate much of a conical surface. Making new ones that are shaped much like the Panasport thrust ring might be a better approach.


I am with you now Russ. I take it your Minilite fitment is similar to mine, you are using the steel wheel Nader Nuts, and we share the same concern with this setup.. Mine look like the larger ones, that work, but the profile looks less than ideal. Do you think the Minilite inserts we already have could be machined to a more appropriate profile for use with the stock steel wheel Spinner/Nader Nuts? I guess the other alternative is to find the illusive curved? profile alloy Spinner/Nader Nuts? Did someone send you pics or additionl info? I can see the reference in my Workshop Manual to the spinners not being interchageable, but can't find a corresponding part reference.

I phoned Ray at RD this afternoon. He confirmed the Panasport inserts are machined up with the 'correct' outside bevel shown in Sarto's pic and stand proud enough of the wheels for sarto's tool to work well. He also sells the tool. He cannot get the Panasport inserts separately from the wheel from his supplier; thought that they might fit the Minilite (maybe with some additional machining), but it is a no-go idea as they don't seem to be readily available. He is not aware of a different Spinner/Nader Nut profile for Lotus alloy's, and his on-line parts catalog only shows two parts for each side of the car (Spinner & Nader Nut). My parts book is the same, but then it is from before Lotus Alloy's were available. He does remember the Lotus alloy insert pictured at the beginning of the thread, but always understood it to prevent contact by the steel Spinner/Nder Nut with the alloy hub rather than a difference in profile. He also confirmed new Spinners are presently NLA; that is why he shows them as "Inquire for price" on his site as he does not know when he will be able to get them again.

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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:10 pm

stugilmour wrote:Do you think the Minilite inserts we already have could be machined to a more appropriate profile for use with the stock steel wheel Spinner/Nader Nuts? I guess the other alternative is to find the illusive curved? profile alloy Spinner/Nader Nuts? Did someone send you pics or additionl info?


Stu,
I would be nervous about turning a conical surface into one of the Minilite thrust rings. I would not want to reduce the cross sectional area much. A better approach would be to make up new pieces that are more like the Panasport thrust rings. Paul did send a couple of photos which I have attached with his permission. It turns out that he has "steel wheels only" knock on nuts while for some reason I thought he had alloy wheel versions. I can't imagine why nuts would be made up with the "steel wheels only" inscription unless there really is a difference. So if any one has an "alloy wheels only" knock on nut, please post images showing the shape of the surface that contacts the thrust ring.
Attachments
photo-2.JPG and
photo-1.JPG and
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:38 pm

Here is a link to a Elan+2 that has new 10 spoke alloys where my standard three tool fits the +2 wheels. business-listings-f3/knockoff-socket-wrench-t2268-15.html
Scroll down to see a picture of a white Elan+2 I don't know what thrust ring came with his new wheels but the tool worked without a problem.
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:22 pm

Hi guys, just found this on Ebay. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOTUS-ELAN-2- ... _500wt_905

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