Plus 2 Braking No Servo

[Expat+2]

Stu, I'd be interested in seeing that drawing if it turns up. My car has a Spyder chassis and a couple of other of their products - I always found them well designed and fabricated.

[Galwaylotus]

Removing the servo will not effect the brakes efficiency as such, just the effort to get there. As can been seen from the thread most people are talking about something more than just simply removing the servo and whether it be harder pads, dual circuits, remote reservoirs, different master cylinders or uprated calipers tell them what else you intend to do.

I think you mean softer pads. Removing the servo increases pedal effort and harder pads do the same. Softer pads are installed to somewhat counteract the effect of removing the servo. Dual vs single circuit master cylinders of the same bore have no effect on braking effort. Just to keep things clear for anyone contemplating a change.

[gerrym]

Have ordered the GMC226 (thats a Girling Master Cylinder) tandem 0.7" bore master cylinder to convert the Plus 2 to split circuit front/rear brakes. This cylinder is made in small batches in Japan by TRW so I'm expecting a good quality part.

The bulkhead mounting dimensions should be identical to the original MC, so apart from any wear, the pushrod etc should fit.
I'm planning to fit two new separate plastic fluid reservoirs in place of the Spitfire 1500 "slice of cheese".

Hydraulic outputs on the "wrong side" will require a little thought: does anybody know if banjo fittings can be purchased that have a SAE or DIN flare female outlet?

Regards

Gerry

[Galwaylotus]

Here's the master cylinder I bought for my S3 SE. It's the same bore as the stock Girling single dcircuit cylinder.

[worzel]

Hi

Probably wrung this topic to death- but- I recently asked for opinions/info on others' experiences of fitting plus 2 calipers to the 2 seater model.

For what it's worth here's my input- originally I stuck with the std 0.7 m/cyl but thought the pressure at the pedal slightly too high so as I had a new 0.625 cyl available I thought I'd try that to test the effect.

This is highly subjective I know but I'd say that the pedal pressure roughly approximates the std smaller caliper system with the servo fitted. Pedal travel is slightly longer but (I've not tried it yet) probably easier to control at the lock up point. This is using Triumph GT6 non servo spec pads.

Regards

John

[CBUEB1771]

does anybody know if banjo fittings can be purchased that have a SAE or DIN flare female outlet?

Banjo fittings were used in a few locations on the Elan and +2. I just popped out to the garage and found a new Lucas/Girling piece in its box. The label reads "64474287 488 BANJO" Mating banjo bolts are available but I don't have the part number. The banjo fitting is a brass casting and either a 3/8" or 10mm banjo bolt fits. The tube fitting is 3/8 UNF female and for the usual "bubble" flare. These should be readily available throughout the UK.

[stugilmour]

Stu, I'd be interested in seeing that drawing if it turns up. My car has a Spyder chassis and a couple of other of their products - I always found them well designed and fabricated.

Martin et al:

Here is the diagram from Sean at Spyder for the pedal box re-enforcement. I guess I did not recall it correctly, as he calls up one weld. I imagine the piece could be fabricated from one single piece of 1/16" steel plate and avoid the weld if this equipment is not to hand.

[SimonH]

Here is the diagram from Sean at Spyder for the pedal box re-enforcement.

Stu,

I think that is by Sean Murray who is on here rather than Sean at Spyder. Unless he has moved over to Peterborough, which he may have done I suppose.

Cheers,
Simon

[stugilmour]

Humm, not sure who might have done the drawing originally, but I got it in the mail from Spyder along with some parts after discussing the issue on the phone with them.

Cheers!

[CBUEB1771]

Humm, not sure who might have done the drawing originally, but I got it in the mail from Spyder along with some parts after discussing the issue on the phone with them.

Cheers!

It is Sean Murray, says so right on the drawing.

[gerrym]

A bit of progress. Now I have the Spitfire 1500 0.7" tandem m/c fitted into the Plus 2 pedal box. Elan pushrod was too short, but Spitfire pushrod needed shortening by 3mm. I've received a remote reservoir which has the same centre to centre spacing for its outlet ports as the inlets to the m/c. Just need to machine up some ss plugs to link the two together....

Does anybody know if the front or rear outlet port from the m/c should be connected to the front or rear brake circuit?

On the friction and pad compound side of things, is anybody using Porterfield R4-1 or have used for any other application.

Regards

Gerry

[stugilmour]

Sean Murray it is then; sorry for the error.

Gerry, at least on the stock Federal Dual MC system the front port (closest to the front of the car) runs to the front wheel brake circuit.

Looking forward to pics of your install; sounds like it is going well.

[alaric]

Gerry, was it difficult to fit the Triumph tandem master cylinder to the pedal box? Is it the standard one apart from the pushrod - for which I understand you had to shorten the original? I ask because while I'm finishing the front end of the car, I could easily fit pipes from the tandem to the front and rear. Fitting this tandem cylinder could be cheaper than trying to get my brake servo working, would give me a split brake solution, and remove the servo from the loop. I've found a standard item for ?130 from Canley Classics. I'm really tempted to make the conversion now rather than wait 'till the car's on the road.

All the best.

Sean.

[gerrym]

Sean, the Triumph Spitfire 1500 tandem master cylinder (Triumph part number GMC226) requires some mods to fit:-

1/ Pushrod needs to be shortened. I achieved this by mounting in the lathe and drill out the "rivet head", then machining a new shoulder on the pushrod shaft and welding the back side. The shoulder takes the compression force, not the weld.

2/ Mounting holes on the bulkhead flange of the Triumph master unit are the same distance apart and 12 o'clock, 6 o'clock as per Lotus Girling Original (LGO)

3/ Cylinder bore is 0.7" as per LGO

4/ Total stroke is longer than LGO but limited by pedal box in both cases

5/ The Triumph mounting is at an angle hence the reservoir is shaped like a piece of cheese. Centre to centre distances for the top feeds are 85mm and I have obtained another plastic tandem M/C reservoir with the same spacing that I have mounted directly to the GMC226. I had to make up a stainless bracket and machine up adaptors to go between the push in rubber fittings in both the M/C and the plastic reservoir. This took a little fiddling.

However there may be another off the shelf solution. If you take a look at the master cylinder advertised on the Westfield spare parts website, it looks as though it would bolt straight on with the correct plastic interface moulded into the reservoir tank. (You might be able to use the entire master cylinder or just purchase a Westfield plastic reservoir)

6/ The hydraulic outlet ports exit on the wing side (offside for RHD) and need a hole driiled in the fibreglass to obtain clearance for banjo fittings. This is not a worry for me as I plan to add further reinforcement to the bulkhead area - while I'm doing that I'll make good the holes.

So overall, potentially a bit of buggering around but I see the advantages as getting a useful emergency brake, making the MOT easier to pass, eliminating the Servo

Regards

[alaric]

Gerry,

Thankyou very much for that summary. I'll take a look at the Westfield item as you suggest and see where it takes me. I swore I wouldn't take that pedal box out again, but it's only pain!

All the best.

Sean.