Lotus Elan

SS Braided brake lines

PostPost by: worzel » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:18 pm

Hi

Might be a can of worms but- here goes.

Anybody care to give anopinion on these items- reading around comments lots of pros for them but recently I read on the jag owner website that they're not a good idea and in fact one supplier (cannot remember the name of the firm) said don't fit them to a roadgoing car.

Correct me if my ideas are wrong on this but how can a (relatively) loose stainless braid stiffen a hose and prevent it from ballooning more than the case of "normal" rubber hoses?

With a helper really standing on the pedal I couldn't see any sidewall flex on my own car- and these hoses were pretty old at the time. Surely any flexible hose by reason the fact that is flexible must have a certain "give" in the walls otherwise it would be rigid- or am I completely off the mark?

Do the likes of upper market end performance cars have braided hoses fitted as std and if so are they actually real improvements rather than being there to satisfy oneupmanship?

John
worzel
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 696
Joined: 13 Jan 2004

PostPost by: gerrym » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:35 pm

John, excuse my partial reply: Stainless wiring reinforcement can stiffen a "flexible" hose against radial expansion. It's all to do with the lay angles of the bracing giving resistance to radial growth. The same stainless wire will have a limited fatigue life, hence the "reason" why they will probably fail a test on a rig that cycles the hose/suspension through high articulation/cycles.

In terms of suitability for "short term" ie limited mileage use, look to motorsport.

Regards

Gerry
gerrym
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 894
Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Location: Aberdeen Scotland

PostPost by: 69S4 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:16 pm

I've had them on my Elan for over 20 yrs now without any sign of fatigue or any other problem. Most rubber hoses would be getting to MOT failure status after less than half that and I have wondered whether the stainless ones were just deteriorating unseen. About a year ago I was changing rear wheel bearings so had the caliper tied up with string to keep it out of the way and the string snapped. The caliper fell with only the hose to stop it so, worried that I might have overstressed something, I replaced the hose. Out of curiosity I took the old hose to bits afterwards but it still looked fine, no apparent damage from the fall or long term deterioration that I could see.

The hose runs are so short (and the pedal box so flexible!) on the Elan I'd be surprised if most people could feel the difference changing rubber to s/s. One of my motorcycles though has two long runs of flexible hose from the master cylinder on the handlebars down to the front wheel and when those hoses were changed to s/s I most certainly could feel the difference. Much much less give when you start to brake hard.
Stuart Holding
Thame UK / Alpe D'Huez France
69 S4 FHC
Honda GoldWing 1800
Honda CBX1000
Kawasaki H1 500
Yamaha XS2
69S4
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1234
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Location: nr Oxford UK

PostPost by: paddy » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:14 pm

I just had an MOT failure on my daily driver because the brake hoses were starting to crack - and this is 6 years old.

How would you spot those kinds of crack on a braided hose?

Paddy
1963 Elan S1
User avatar
paddy
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1197
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Location: Woking, Surrey

PostPost by: msd1107 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:35 pm

I got a noticably firmer and more linear brake pedal when going from rubber to ss brake lines, You probably will too, unless you use a brake booster.

IMHO, brake lines are a maintenance item like anti-freeze, hoses, water pumps, etc. Replace them well before their expected life expectancy and drive trouble free.

Mercedes Benz developed their early reputation for reliability by replacing consumables at a fraction of their expected life. Owners complained about the cost of maintenance, but the cars were reliable.

Just my opinion.

David
1968 36/7988
User avatar
msd1107
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 856
Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Location: Hollywood, CA USA

PostPost by: AussieJohn » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:33 pm

In NSW a car fitted with steel hoses would fail an mot, I dont know the reasoning but they do have some strange ideas over there at times; ps I have steel hoses on my +2 and my Griff and no problems yet.
AussieJohn
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 447
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Yorkshire

PostPost by: bcmc33 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:25 am

worzel wrote:Correct me if my ideas are wrong on this

Yes, John, you're wrong.

If the braid is 'loose' a couple of thou expansion will soon make it tight. The last thing you need is for the hose to expand in the brake line - the whole principle behind braided hoses.

However, Paddy makes a very, very excellent point - and has reminded me to replace all my braided brake hoses when I take the rear calipers off to be refurbished next week.

The braided clutch hose is already waiting to be fitted when the new slave cylinder arrives.
Brian Clarke
(1972 Sprint 5 EFI)

Growing old is mandatory..........Growing up is optional
User avatar
bcmc33
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1847
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Location: Aldridge, West Midlands, UK.

PostPost by: prezoom » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:38 am

Here in the US, we do not have the trials and tribulations of the MOT, but we do have DOT approval when it comes to brake lines. If you buy the fittings and make up the lines themselves from scratch, you will most likely wind up with a superior brake line but lack DOT approval. There are several companies that specialize in making up the stainless steel braided lines that do have the DOT stamp of approval. The company near me can also provide a outer coating over the stainless in just about any color you would want. Nothing like pink brake lines on you Wedgewood blue car. These lines are equipped with crimped on fittings, rather than the usual screw together components. The only downside, is you have to be exact in your measurements when ordering the lines. I just took the rubber lines over to them and asked them to make a direct replacement. I did ask for a black outer coating. They will supply them without the DOT approval tag for a reduced price. One advantage is, I wind up with far fewer holes in the ends of my fingers from the ends of the cut stainless outer covering. They can make them in either AN-3 or -4.

Rob Walker
26-4889
Rob Walker
26-4889
50-0315N
1964 Sabra GT
1964 Elva Mk4T Coupe (awaiting restoration)
1965 Ford Falcon Ranchero, 302,AOD,9",rack and pinion,disc,etc,etc,etc
1954 Nash Healey LeMans Coupe

Owning a Lotus will get you off the couch
prezoom
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1264
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Location: Escondido, California

PostPost by: freddy22112211 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:54 pm

Wanted to replace my flexible brake lines too. But can't undo a single connection. So, saw everything off and get new calipers, brackets etc etc??
Gordon
1972 LHD Sprint 5 Cabriolet - sold!
User avatar
freddy22112211
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 191
Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Location: Ulm, Germany

PostPost by: patrics » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:57 pm

Hi John,

You will gain real improvements in pedal travel if you fit Teflon lined stainless hoses. The reduction in pedal travel will be better than 10 mm at high pressures and could easily be more compared to some after market hoses. This is based on a new for new comparison.
Another comparison would be that you could run Teflon type hose from master cylinder to all of the brakes and still be better off compared to standard.

Some current Jags have these fitted as standard but BMW normally fit a ?rubber? type hose which is nearly as good.

You do have to take a lot of care fitting these so that there are no twists etc.

The crimped type that you can buy do not have stainless fitting so in a couple of years time you will still probably end up cutting them off.

I make my own using stainless parts.

Regards
Steve
patrics
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 549
Joined: 21 Sep 2003

PostPost by: bcmc33 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:23 pm

patrics wrote:Another comparison would be that you could run Teflon type hose from master cylinder to all of the brakes and still be better off compared to standard.

I need some help here. Are you suggesting that Teflon hose is better than Bundy type tubing up to the point of hose connections?

patrics wrote:I make my own using stainless parts.

I'm interested to know how you cut the Teflon/stainless hose, and how you crimp the fittings so that I can do the same.
Brian Clarke
(1972 Sprint 5 EFI)

Growing old is mandatory..........Growing up is optional
User avatar
bcmc33
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1847
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Location: Aldridge, West Midlands, UK.

PostPost by: cabc26b » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:49 pm

Brian,

I primarily use Aeroquip for plumbing. For brake hoses I use -3 teflon with stainless steel over-braid. You can now get the vinal over the steel braid. for fittings I use the steel " reusable" in case I decide to or need to replace the hose. These hoses can be cut with a hack saw or as I do with a cut off wheel on a tool like a angle grinder ( I tape the hose to keep the braid down. The fittings work via compression so all you need is hand tools and a vise ( pad the jaws with alu or softer material) Also eaton/aeroquip have instruction manuals.

Here is a photo example of one I made .


George


P.S. I don't advocate replacement of hard lines.
Attachments
brakehose.JPG and
-3 hose with black vinal, angled banjo and straight swivel .
cabc26b
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 936
Joined: 21 Sep 2003

PostPost by: patrics » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:40 pm

Hi Brian,

No I?m not saying Teflon hose is better than bundy just that if you removed all four std hoses and ran Teflon from master cylinder to brake the displacement of all that Teflon hose is less than the four standard type hoses.

You can cut the hose with a junior hacksaw after taping up with masking tape

For you in the west mids the best place to would be JLS in West Brom

Fitting instructions:

http://www.lister.co.uk/Uploads/product ... ontips.pdf

You should always pressure test hoses after they are made.

Regards
Steve
patrics
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 549
Joined: 21 Sep 2003

PostPost by: Jason1 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:07 pm

Hi

I have these:

http://www.brake-lines.co.uk/lotus-elan ... lines.html

All HEL kits come with CNC machined stainless steel fittings, banjo bolts and new copper washers (where applicable), stainless steel braided teflon hose, a PVC protective wipe-clean sleeve, and lifetime warranty.


They come in lots of different colours; I have the blue but you can get pink if you want. :lol: :lol:

I looked at the Goodridge ones but these have all Stainless fixings.

Jason
50/0951 1968 Wedgewood blue +2, 1990 Mini Cooper RSP
User avatar
Jason1
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1589
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Location: Colchester, Essex. UK

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests