Lotus Elan

knock on hub nut tool

PostPost by: mac5777 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:38 pm

Just for the fun of it, here are some pictures of the early designs to get the correct shape and protective coverings for the spinner and the wheel. The cost to get the press and dies set exact and the right leather coverings was not cheap.

Sarto
Attachments
DSC00004.JPG and
Cutting flat metal and getting it pressed into a shape that works was fun actually.
DSC00005.JPG and
rubberize coatings and one of many leather attempts.
lotus elan 1966 S3 FHC
36/5785
LHD
User avatar
mac5777
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 574
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Location: Northern California

PostPost by: seaandmoor » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:52 pm

Hi Sarto,
I knew you'd probably read my post and be right there offering help - I said you were a top bloke or words to that effect and certainly wasn't running you down at all.

From what I've seen these tools are very well made indeed.

Yes I got the second version thanks but i was waiting for a new set of the thrust washers ( I think you called them shims) just incase I had something wrong with my original washers. They took some come to come.

Eventually the new washers arrived and I fitted those into the wheels and then tried the second tool (just carefully so as not to mark the tool) but the metal of the tool still comes up against the fins of the alloy wheels before the spinner is torqued.

I have also taken the original tool which you supplied to me down to an engineers and asked him to look at it. The only way we can get it to torque up the spinner and clear the fins of the wheel is to machine down the ears of the tool to the point where the little 'extensions' are thin to the point where they are likely to break off.

I'll post some photos to-morrow showing my new thrust washers, the wheel with the cut through fins and also the tool as machined. I just can't fathom out why everyone elses works fine but not mine.
I'll PM to ENSKR who lives about 70 miles from me and see if he's willing to show me how the tool works on his wheels/spinner.

Oh and a question... please don't laugh but... I bought myself a torque wrench made by Draper at great expense from a large supplier of tools to the motor industry. The instruction manual reads "torque wrenches must only be used to torque in a clockwise direction" Ok, so I can torque up the spinners on the right hand side of the car.
But then I asked the guy 'so how do I torque up anticlockwise?'
His response was "why the hell would anyone want to do that?!"
I explained about spinners and the need to torque anticlockwise on the other side of the car only to be told "sorry, torque wrenches only torque clockwise - like it says in the book"
So how is everyone torquing the anticlockwise spinners on the left hand side of the car????
Thanks
Photos up to-morrow sometime.
seaandmoor
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: United Kingdom

PostPost by: paddy » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:22 pm

seaandmoor wrote:So how is everyone torquing the anticlockwise spinners on the left hand side of the car????


Tighten the spinner with a breaker bar, and check you can *only just* get it loose again with the torque wrench :)

Seriously, if you google "reversible torque wrench" you'll find quite a few.

Paddy
1963 Elan S1
User avatar
paddy
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1190
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Location: Woking, Surrey

PostPost by: mac5777 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:24 am

Hi seaandmoor, There must not be very much space between the fully torque spinner ears and your wheel face. "unusual" It must be real hard to miss the alloys with a hammer.
The only portion of the tool that extends past the spinner's ears is the tools tip and a little extra leather just incase one accidently would bump the wheel and chip the paint. The tool can not be pushed any closer to the wheel and make contact. The spinner contacts the back of the tool before and stops the tool from hitting the wheel even fully torqued.
You are right not to take off too much metal off the tip. The tip needs to be strong not to bend or could even break under torque.
If the tool is hitting your wheel before hitting 200 ft/lb. you may not know if the spinner is fully tightened even of the torque wrench reads 200.
Oh, if your torque wrench is not reversible you can damage the torque wrench. Does ENSKA have lotus Alloys type wheels?
I'll wait for your pictures and if my tool will not work on your wheels. You might want to sell both tools and I'll cover the shipping and give a little discount to the new buyers. That way you will get all of your money back.
Or send them to Susan Miller and maybe she might want to handle them as a dealer and I will refund your purchase and expenses.

Regards. Sarto
lotus elan 1966 S3 FHC
36/5785
LHD
User avatar
mac5777
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 574
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Location: Northern California

PostPost by: alan71 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:20 am

It?s not often I recommend Halfords but they do a 225 lb-ft reversible torque wrench for ?59.99

Alan
alan71
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 222
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Location: UK

PostPost by: seaandmoor » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:08 pm

Paddy your suggestion is not so daft - I tried it before reading your post and with a bit of trial and error I could get the passenger wheels to about 180.
Alan, thanks for that - I'd already googled reversible wrenches and rang snapon and rigid (about ?450 plus delivery)... I'll be straight down to Halfrauds to-morrow!

Ok Sarto next!
Firstly, I noticed on your Panasports you have quite a thick thrust washer - probably about 10mm thick - if I had a set of those suitable for the standard Lotus wheels my problem would be solved.

I'm trying to post photos to show you the scored fins about 2/3mm deep, my thrust washers which when fitted recess so they are flush with front face of the fins, the tool as machined showing the side pieces which are now only about 2mm thick and lastly the 5mm cork pad I've put in to try and prevent the tool going up against the fins of the wheel.
Machined as shown and with the cork pad in place, I can torque up and just clear the fins of the wheel but as you can see my tool isn't what it was! If can get me one like this that would be great - I'd estimate 7.5mm has been shaved off the depth of the tool.

Oh and don't worry about money back. In fact for your next UK buyer I'd be very happy to send them the unmarked second tool which you sent me and that saves you shipping. I only offered it up to the spinner/wheel and found it would still catch the fins so didn't apply the torque wrench at all.
Best regards
Attachments
5mm cork spacer.JPG and
Machining marks.JPG and
Machined to 2mm.JPG and
Thrust Ring 2.JPG and
Thrust Ring.JPG and
Scored Fin.JPG and
seaandmoor
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: United Kingdom

PostPost by: alexblack13 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:52 pm

Anyone tried this?

www.spinitoff.com


Alex B.... 8)
Alex Black.
Now Sprintless!!
User avatar
alexblack13
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2357
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Location: Fife Scotland

PostPost by: mac5777 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:32 am

Seaandmoor, WOW if it takes that much off of the tool's tip to clear the fins, your spinners are real close to the fins.
One picture shows how the thickness of the tool is ground to fit as flat as possible against the spinner's ear. There has to be room for the leather to protect the chrome and enough room not to be too tight and cut the leather. 200 ft/lb is concentrated on that tiny spot. A sharp edge just cuts through any material, even leather.
The other picture shows the space needed for the leather not to be damaged. When you add thickness to the back of the tool it moves the grip closer to the spinner's ear and pinches the leather. The leather can take the torque and not tear as long as the proper space is maintained.
My tool appears can not be adjusted to fit your wheels.
Maybe Alex or someone else will take the new version tool that you still have and I'll discount it to $120.00 US = $78.3 GBP and i'll make up the difference to you plus the shipping you paid.
Later, Sarto
Attachments
DSC00122_2.JPG and
This shows that under full torque the leather cushions the spinner without damaging it. If you add to the back of the tool it will move the tool and pinch the leather.
DSC00007.JPG and
This shows even without the leather how the metal on metal is flat which helps the leather take the torque without being pinched and cut.
lotus elan 1966 S3 FHC
36/5785
LHD
User avatar
mac5777
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 574
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Location: Northern California

PostPost by: mac5777 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:04 am

Alex your idea has merit. I had a proto type similar to yours and you are right to center the tool. And the further out on the spinners ears you can get might even work for Seaandmoor's wheels. I have broken pins off with torque when testing them repeatedly. They need to be tough. If you PM me I can give you the results of my early tested attempts.

Sarto
lotus elan 1966 S3 FHC
36/5785
LHD
User avatar
mac5777
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 574
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Location: Northern California

PostPost by: seaandmoor » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:59 am

Morning Sarto,
Thanks for reply. I fully understand the mechanics and design criteria that you are explaining to me.
I PM'd ENSKR and he promptly replied and kindly offered to let me look at how the tool works on his spinners but he has changed to Panasport!

I don't know what to do because I presume that others are successfully using the tool on the same wheels as my own - perhaps someone on the forum can confirm this?

I'm reluctant to give up on this!

Lastly yes... I'm happy to post on the new tool to your next UK buyer.
Best Regards
seaandmoor
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: United Kingdom

PostPost by: powellsmail » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:47 pm

Just to add to the discussion, I have one of the tools pictured in picture 052. I also have Minilites. I simply cut up a leather gardening glove and taped pieces of leather on the edges of the surfaces where it meets the spinner.

Add an 18 inch bar , lean 200lbs of me 12" along and there you have 200 ft/lbs. It has served me well for the last 5 years or so. It came from someone in Sarasota Florida, as they did not have a UK distributor (I was in Florida and went and got it). Originally I found out about it through this forum where they agreed to do a discount if 5 loti owners bought one, which did happen. Cant remember the cost.

The wheels and spinners were all new at the time and I do not have any scratches anywhere.

I do not know where you are but am in Bucks if you wanted to try it out.

Regards

Mark
powellsmail
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 70
Joined: 14 Sep 2003

PostPost by: mac5777 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:46 pm

Hi Mark, Here is Dave Anderson site that he had made a tool like what, I think you are talking about. http://reality.sgiweb.org/davea/elan.html

There was another tool maker that use the same socket and dipped the tool's face in a heat treated vulcanized rubber. The problem, according to him, was it did not last and my question back to him was how to I replace the vulcanized rubber since it takes 350 degree of tem. My leather is easily re-newed.

Here is another site on how to build that same type tool and how they protected the edges. http://www.rmccar.com/techsession.html Their torque specs are way off the charts.
The protective materials used has to be replaced as the metal edges cuts into them under 200ft/lb of torque after a few uses or even the first time. Aluminum is a better material to wrap the tools edge.
The sharp edges of the tool against the spinner metal ears concentrates all of the presser on one tiny spot and cuts the material. The tool's design allow the tool to bump up against the wheel if you are not careful. My tool can not be pushed into the wheel. So Mark, if yours has worked for you, just watch for the signs of failure and be safe.

Our old weber friend, Keith used one of these and fell to the ground when the tips broke off when applying torque. That manufacturer does not made them any longer. The truck wheel socket is made of a thinner metal and the tip needs to have more meat behind the spinner not to bend or break. And not hit the wheel if you increase the tip size for strength. That is one of the reasons I made my metal tips thicker and beefier so metal fatigue does happen to the tips. I also ground the metal to spread out the contact surface and cushioned it with the leather that can take the torque. My thicker metal tips means I do not need that much metal depth behind the spinner. There is not much room behind the spinner's ears and the wheel surface to work with and still be strong.
So for those who have the means to invent cheaper tools, I hope this info will save some time.

Seaandmoor, I found one of your spinner photos and your spinner look like they are the US safety type spinners that the eared bend back. I assume its another US stupidity requirerment. All though I have never seem one here. How common are these spinners? Your photo was the first one I have ever seen. Your last photo looks like a normal spinner??

Thanks guys for all of your support. Sarto
lotus elan 1966 S3 FHC
36/5785
LHD
User avatar
mac5777
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 574
Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Location: Northern California

PostPost by: Frank Howard » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:29 pm

powellsmail wrote:Add an 18 inch bar , lean 200lbs of me 12" along and there you have 200 ft/lbs.

OK. I think I need a lesson on torque.

1. Are you saying that if you apply 200# to a lever 12" out from the center of the nut, you will tighten the nut to 200 ft/lbs?

2. If that is true, if you apply 100# to a lever 24" out from the center of the nut, will you still be tightening the nut to 200 ft/lbs?

I may be old, but I'm not too old to learn something new.
Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota
Frank Howard
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 994
Joined: 30 Mar 2004

PostPost by: paddy » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:30 pm

Yes, exactly right. Torque (in lb-ft) = force applied (in lb) x distance (in ft)

Paddy
1963 Elan S1
User avatar
paddy
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1190
Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Location: Woking, Surrey

PostPost by: seaandmoor » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:34 pm

Hi again Sarto,

Both photos are of the same spinner! However, I'm wondering if the ears are 'flatter' than they should be. Most Elans and plus 2's are fitted with them.
I'll see if one day I can compare my spinners with the standard as fitted in the uK to see if there in lies an answer.
It may be some time before I can do the comparison though.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Sarto and well actually to all on the forum!
Cheers Seaandmoor
seaandmoor
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 149
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: United Kingdom
PreviousNext

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests