Poly bushes & Spyder bones

[bcmc33]

When I first saw the picture I just shook my head in disbelief, but didn't think to post a comment.
As someone responsible for the manufacture of Ford alloy wheels for a number of years, it is clear that the diecaster does not check carefully enough to ensure the casting thickness variation does not exceed 0.5mm, or they have a pretty lousy machinist.
It would be interesting to know what the out-of-balance is without the tyre fitted.
To what quality standard do Minilite guarantee the wheels? A question for Minilite, I think.
If this is the normal standard, then the wheels should be balanced as a machined item before sale.

This gives me something to think about before I but the planned Minilites before next spring.


Brian Clarke

[M100]

Those look like 5g weights so its not too bad I suppose - unless there are even more out of shot! Lotus don't seem to publish any figures for the original Elan, nor indeed for the Elise but for the Esprit and FWD Elan they stated the maximum permissible amount of wheel balance weights. These are in the order of 60-70g on the inside edge of the rim and a similar amount on the outside edge rim. I think I've had just one wheel (which was true and straight) on a FWD Elan that needed around this level on one edge, most of the time, even with steel knock ons 20-30g is sufficient.

[Garibaldi]

I'm probably telling you something that you alkready know, but if you can find a sympathetic tire shop, have them move the tire on that rim 90 degrees and then check how much weight you need.
GP

Martin,

Well spotted !

Have had all four wheels balanced and this particular one double-checked.
Promptly went to another company for a check .. no difference !

Will soon be putting the old 'winter wheels' on (semi-storage) and will whistle the Minilites off for yet another opinion.

If the answer is still the same, then I'm half inclined to ring up Minilite and "compliment" them on outstanding quality control. On a new rim, I can never remember anywhere like this number of weights being required.

Regards,
Stuart.

[steveww]

The Minilites on my S4 only have a normal ammount of weights on. Could be the tyre, may be worth trying rotating the tyre on the rim as suggested.

If it is the wheel that is out then contact Minilite, I found them to be very helpful.

[Garibaldi]

The Minilites on my S4 only have a normal ammount of weights on. Could be the tyre, may be worth trying rotating the tyre on the rim as suggested.

If it is the wheel that is out then contact Minilite, I found them to be very helpful.

If they're not, sometimes a machine shop can add som lightness to the heavy part.

GP

[miked]

Christian,

When you put your spacer in between the Minilite to avoid your A frames, did you do anything different with the drive pegs. Or are they just standard length.

I never answered about the size. Mine are 5 x 13, same as yours.

Mike

[Old English White]

... Standards ones , the drive pegs .
But no more than 3,5mm , the spacers ... If you have a close look to a steel pressed wheel , you 'll see than the length left is fair enough to drive the Minilite's ...
After that , You have to choose the right tyres depending of your wheelarches ...
Christian.

[miked]

Christian thanks for the info'. Have XAS.

Update. I have relieved the left side A frame and got a good clearance to both the wheel and the arch. I am still on with the right side. Done some filing on the bone but think I will make up a spacer for this side of about 1.5mm. I doubt whether the build accuarcy of an Elan will cause a problem with this. Have a few more mm arch clearance on this side.

Re: adjustable rear frame/bones. Dropped the car to the floor, did the box string (per Steve). What a blast it was setting my toe in with the adjusters and ruler. Looking from the rear it looks different now with the correct toe in. Cant wait to go for a spin to hopefully feel the difference.

One point i have to check, were the old bone touched the Minilites was irregular. This was due to different clearance. Is it called excentricity (or lack of).
The left had a more constant mark. I am going to try one of the front wheels in the right rear as I suspect that the casting of these wheel may be from slightly different moulds (???????). Am I right in thinking only the enginering bits are cut on the lathe etc. If so, maybe one of the other have a more regular clearance. Bit disapointing isnt it when you can spin a minilite and see the inside gap vary.

Re: the post by worzel about the woes, I fully understand and he is right. Stem to stern is best but ???????. Even then you start to go over the bits you dont like and uprate things. Elan ownership is a nature of character for all us fiddlers. However the ride in an Elan when it is on form is the dogs dangly bits.



Mike

[Garibaldi]

One point i have to check, were the old bone touched the Minilites was irregular. This was due to different clearance. Is it called excentricity (or lack of).
The left had a more constant mark. I am going to try one of the front wheels in the right rear as I suspect that the casting of these wheel may be from slightly different moulds (???????). Am I right in thinking only the enginering bits are cut on the lathe etc. If so, maybe one of the other have a more regular clearance. Bit disapointing isnt it when you can spin a minilite and see the inside gap vary.
Mike

Mike:

If you've got real minilites, my recollection is that they're very light and easily pranged. if you have a wheel that on the car looks like it has excessive runout, it actually could be a number of things. The quick check is have a tyre dealer mount the wheel on their tyre balancing machine and have them check the runout. Wheels can be made nice and straight, but you will pay for the privilege. Here in the colonies we expect to pay about $100 per wheel to have them "trued." This is more art than science and requires someone with a lever-like handle to bend the wheel back into shape. There's more that can cause what you're seeing, but for now, assume it's the wheel. Also, if you don't feel any effects of the runout, it's probably a non-issue. If you're having balancing problems, there's ways to fix that, usually without resorting to straightening a warped wheel.

Regards,
GP

[miked]

GP,

They are Minilite and brand spankers. Less than 1000 miles. Never touched a thing. They are perfect. Thats why I am a bit unhappy. No wobble or balance issues and had them balanced when bought. Is it not the casting ????. I would bet that the front cut face is true. I will try with the DTI.


Mike

[Garibaldi]

GP,

They are Minilite and brand spankers. Less than 1000 miles. Never touched a thing. They are perfect. Thats why I am a bit unhappy. No wobble or balance issues and had them balanced when bought. Is it not the casting ????. I would bet that the front cut face is true. I will try with the DTI.


Mike

It could be. If you have checked that the bearings are not loose, it can't be them. Sometimes brake discs aren't hub-centric and they will cause the wheel to wobble. This can be checked by removing the wheel and setting up a "pointer" next to the disc to watch for runout. For instance a stiff piece of wire can be attached somewhere and bent into a position such that the tip of the wire just touches the disk. Turn the disk and watch its effect on the wire. You may find the disk has as much runout as the wheel. One other thing to keep in mind is that the various tolerances of bearings, rotors, bushes, etc. can sometime result in excessive runout.

With at least 60 g of mass on that wheel, something is up. I'd blame the tyre first, wheel second, disk third, and so on. Do you notice the tyre hopping as it is rotated (seeming to move up and down)? It may also have a high spot on one edge that "pops" into view as the tyre is rotated while being viewed from the rear, i.e., tyre rotating "forward," your eyes positioned to view the tread, sightline perpendicular to the tread, parallel to the sidewalls.

GP

[miked]

GP, sorry no reply. got busy.

The catch part was 120 degrees displaced on each back wheel before the mods. Makes me believe it is uniform high areas on the inside of the cast.

However. Did my last bit of filing and painted the bones and the wheel inners, where slighlty marked. Happy with left bone to wheel clearance. Made a 1mm spacer for the right and put the car on the deck. Went out in the winds on Sunday night. Had no touching! Car sit on the road a lot better with the rear track set correct. Feels stable and neutral. This is what started this thread! I have lost that nervous feeling (even with the winds) with the toe out, I had.

I do agree with Steve W, no two cars are exaclty the same. With the tolerance of after market bits you can have problems with clearance. What is significant is that when you look at a genuine old Lotus "A" frame/bone the neatness and delicate braze and even the patch pieces are slimmer than say a Spyder bone. They knew exaclty how close they were.

Phew, thank the lord I have finished this. Probably the most worrying of all the jobs, as I did not like filing new kit. Looks like some good advice about doing the exact measurements in one of the threads about XAS and Minilites.


Mike

[Garibaldi]

GP, sorry no reply. got busy.
----------------SNIP--------------
Phew, thank the lord I have finished this. Probably the most worrying of all the jobs, as I did not like filing new kit. Looks like some good advice about doing the exact measurements in one of the threads about XAS and Minilites.

Mike

Tough to hear that Mini-lite have this problem. They've been the 'gold standard' in my mind for years. Panasport come a close second. What's the sense of paying the Mini-lite premium if you have to kluge them to make them work?
GP

[miked]

On my travels on Friday I called at TTR's to spend some money on the track day car project.
Well impressed with all the goodies. Xmas money and some well gone!
I did notice that TTR's rear race "A" frames come with the outer tubes cut back were we have been discusing the filing and grinding to clear the Ally wheels. They are very nicley made with very small neat welds. With the cuts out pieces they look tiny at the outer ends. I am not as worried about some of the filing I did on my Spyder ones to render them down to correct dimensions and then clear the wheel.

Also notice that TTR does the same style rear outer "A" frame Poly bushes as MM for normal ones. They are however thinner at the top hat, so I guess none of the filing of the ally strut takes place as with the MM ones. Perhaps there is then less opportunity to flex with these.

Mike

[M100]

Tough to hear that Mini-lite have this problem. They've been the 'gold standard' in my mind for years. Panasport come a close second. What's the sense of paying the Mini-lite premium if you have to kluge them to make them work?

Precisely. Although I think the problem all stems from the fact for Elan owners Minilite should have really produced them in 4.5" or 5" form suitable for the Elan +0 rather than 5.5" as "one size fits all as long as you use a hammer, body filler, saws, files etc"

kludge seems too kind a word to use!