Lotus Elan

Cartridge water pumps

PostPost by: skelteanema » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:29 am

Hi all,
was getting the Elan ready for its winter hibernation (in New Zealand) when I noticed a water mist from the engine. There is considerable play in the water pump so it is time for a replacement. I haven't taken the engine out before, but it looks like I will be now :lol: .

I am going to fully remove the engine and then the front cover/pump assembly before deciding on what parts are required so I only have to make a single order. Any advice on what parts I require will be appreciated, especially ones I may inadvertently overlook.

I was looking at the cartridge water pump systems and note that Burtons, SJ Sportscars and Tony Thompson all have these kits. Are they all the same, i.e. Burton design? I see a previous post suggesting that the Tony Thompson one and the Burton one are the same? Is this the case for the SJSportcars ones as well? The prices are quite different with the TT one significantly cheaper (unless prices are not up to date).

Another question, I have read that these systems may require some fettling to fit properly. Does this require specialist tools or just basic tools and patience?

I will try and get the engine out this weekend, and while it is out I am going to try and sort some other minor issues, like oil leaks.
Thanks
Skittle. 1967 Elan S3 DHC
skelteanema
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 175
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Location: New Zealand

PostPost by: h20hamelan » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:08 am

With a removable cross member, fairly straightforward to fit the original pump.
I like the idea of an electric pump, people have done this.

Recent Burton cartridge conversation.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=43910
W. Kootenays B.C. Canada
Born, and brought home from the hospital (no seat belt (wtf)) in a baby!
Find out where the limits are, and start from there
User avatar
h20hamelan
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 497
Joined: 25 Sep 2010

PostPost by: Concrete-crusher » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:05 am

Hi I have changed my water pump twice in 20 years, the first time with the engine in and the second time with the engine out, in my opinion its as much work leaving the engine in and access to the sump gasket is harder making an oil tight engine harder to achieve.

I'd recommend taking the engine out to do it

Steve
Concrete-crusher
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 383
Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Location: UK

PostPost by: HCA » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:46 am

I suggest you read previous - and existing - threads on the subject. It seems that the main issue is poorly machined plates supplied. I do not think any special tools are needed, but yes to a bit of fettling and patience!

I am in a similar position to you - except my pump is still ok, but the thought of relacing it in the future as is, is a definite turn off! On this basis, the extra cash outlay to make it simpler is maybe worth it.

However I have asked the question privately of few here who question if it is really necessary if the water pump is installed properly AND not too much strain is put on it by over tightening the fan belt. In particular, Ronan regularly races his car where the engine is probabaly, or should be, used to within an inch of its life and he is not worried about using the standard set-up. On this basis I am wondering if a cartridge conversion is not just a waste of money for the amount of miles I shall be doing only using the engine at half its potential...

So maybe install a quality new water pump, respect it and save the money :)

Or, sods law and you are the one unlucky person where a new pump fails and you wished yo had spent the money on a conversion :)
HCA
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 314
Joined: 03 Jan 2020
Location: Limoux, France

PostPost by: skelteanema » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:37 am

Hi all
thanks for the replies so far. I intend to dismantle first and look at the condition of the various parts and this will to some extent decide what direction I take.

I see mentioned a couple of times to install a quality water pump. Who provides a quality pump and how do I know if the pumps supplied are of good quality?

I usually use SJSportscars for my parts as they have been reliable and have fast delivery to NZ.

Thanks
Skittle. 1967 Elan S3 DHC
skelteanema
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 175
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Location: New Zealand

PostPost by: tvacc » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:10 pm

I am in the USA so I bought a cartridge pump from Dave Bean. Very happy with it. As far as the wear and tear on a pump. I honestly believe (from my experience) that the thing that kills the pumps is just letting the car sit around. Little use and the seals take a set and soon wear out. That is what has killed every one of mine. Now saying that, I would never go back to the regular pump. It is so easy to change with you have a cartridge.
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15, 68 Elan Coupe RHD
User avatar
tvacc
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1173
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Location: Buffalo NY

PostPost by: h20hamelan » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:31 pm

i run coolant conditioner in my vehicles.
not sure if it helps the twinks or not, my bet is. it does. mainly for the reason of prolonged sitting/not running.
I believe it is also an atom neutralizer, for the mixed metals.
W. Kootenays B.C. Canada
Born, and brought home from the hospital (no seat belt (wtf)) in a baby!
Find out where the limits are, and start from there
User avatar
h20hamelan
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 497
Joined: 25 Sep 2010

PostPost by: Donels » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:11 pm

I recently fitted a Burton cartridge pump and it went together well with no fettling required. I suspect they have now fettled out the fettling required on earlier pumps.

The only problem I had was getting the O seal to stay in the groove long enough to assemble it. The secret I found is to use some temporary bolts to hold it in place then leave over night, remove the temporary bolts and the O seal stays in place.

I bought it from SJS and it came in a Burton box. I suspect they are all the same kit.
Elan +2
Elise mk 1
Donels
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 322
Joined: 10 Sep 2016
Location: Tamworth

PostPost by: RichardHawkins » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:48 pm

I think Tony is correct, we do not use our cars/pumps often enough. I spent most of my working life in the chemical industry, with hundreds of pumps running continuously mainly pumping corrosive and abrasive liquids. Usually these pumps just worked, but the conditions that the seal saw had to be correct. We had one pump that seemed to be an easy duty, but it always leaked. I was talking to an application engineer from the seal manufacturer, and quite by chance we were near the spare pump that had just had new seals fitted. He asked me what would we do next, I replied it would be on standby, he then explained that if that particular seal was not put into service within a short time (I can’t remember how long) the seal faces would have seized together and would leak when the pump was started.

I don’t remember Ford cars from the 1960’s having seal problems with water pumps, but they were usually used frequently.

I was fortunate to visit a seal manufacturers premises including their test facility, where all sorts of seals were being tested most in quite unrealistic conditions, but amongst them was a Ford Pinto engine. Ford insisted on a real meaningful test on an engine before it went on to be tested in a vehicle.

I doubt that we are being supplied with a pump that would satisfy a vehicle manufacturer.

I have decided to use a Davis Craig electric pump. Hope that is not a mistake.

Richard Hawkins
RichardHawkins
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 772
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Location: Lincolnshire U.K.

PostPost by: 2cams70 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:30 am

The Burton pump can be made to fit but to make it fit well is a different matter altogether. If you are prepared to accept misaligned pulleys, etc. it can probably be fitted without much fettling.
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
Peugeot 505 GTI Wagons (5spdx1) (Autox1)
2015 Honda City 5spd.
2cams70
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 10 Jun 2015
Location: Australia

PostPost by: billwill » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:46 am

There is dispute over who designed the cartridge water pump, but it almost certainly was not Burton, though they are now the makers of it.

Some say it started with Vegantune of Spalding, but I recall seeing a mention that even they had 'borrowed' it from the actual designer.

I think the USA Bean version is a different design.

Anyway, whatever, it is expensive because you have to buy both a new backplate and frontplate of the timing case to fit the cartridge into. There are two different sizes of these front covers to suit the standard engine-block and the slightly bigger 1700cc (Ford Crossflow) block.

The cartridge itself has the advantage that its 3 bolts, (which go right through the timing case into the block) can be removed then fitted into extra threaded holes in the cartridge, where they act as a 'puller' to get the whole cartridge out. It is then easier to fit a new waterpump kit into the handy-sized cartridge and replace it, or you can even have a pre-done cartridge on hand to fit. Be aware that (I think) the proper water-pump kit for the cartridge is slightly different from the standard kit, but Burton do not seem to distinguish. The standard kit can be fettled to fit, as I know I did that last time.

https://www.burtonpower.com/burton-wate ... fl860.html

Wow, the waterpump repair kit seems to have near tripled in price since I last looked.
Bill Williams

36/6725 S3 Coupe OGU108E Yellow over Black.
billwill
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4721
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: London UK

PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:29 pm

Cartridge water pumps have been around for many many years. I made my own back in the 80's by machining a standard front cover casting and getting an insert fabricated. Since then various people have made various versions that they have offered on a commercial basis.

There are two types of cartridge water pumps currently available as far as I am aware

1. Burton / all other UK suppliers - needs some work often to get proper fit and has sometimes porosity in the casting. But then again some of the standard new casting have similar porosity issues. The centre bearing bore cast location can be offset leaving little metal where the O-ring seal fits in parts, leading to leak potential in this area

2. Dave Bean - appears to be more robust with its design on how the insert fits and seals and potentially requires less work to get to fit but casting quality has been variable due to porosity in early years. It may be better now as have not had experience with their kits for a few years

Note new standard castings also have similar issues with accuracy of the casting and casting porosity and may require work to fix also.

In the end you pays your money and takes your chance. Personally I use an original front cover casting when I have one in good condition, which is becoming increasingly rare unfortunately. I always keep the drive belt as loose as possible as it tightens when the engine heats up and stresses the bearing. If you cant just turn the water pump pulley or generator / alternator pulley by hand when the engine is cold the belt is to tight

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7512
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: HCA » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:49 pm

I am, if I do not go cartridge, thinking of a ribbed belt - good idea or no?
HCA
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 314
Joined: 03 Jan 2020
Location: Limoux, France

PostPost by: tvacc » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:19 pm

I have put on or helped put on 3 of the Bean units. As long as you RTV everything including the bolts, goes on real easy and easy to pull cartridge. I had porosity issues on my first one but I think I was actually the first or one of the first ones. They replaced it, no problem other than I had to take it apart again. I have 2 Elans here with the Bean unit.
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15, 68 Elan Coupe RHD
User avatar
tvacc
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1173
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Location: Buffalo NY

PostPost by: 2cams70 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:31 pm

RichardHawkins wrote:I don’t remember Ford cars from the 1960’s having seal problems with water pumps, but they were usually used frequently.


Yes in standard crossflows the pump is very reliable. In crossflows Ford increased the diameter of the bearing around '71. I suspect they did this at the same time as introducing alternators replacing generators. Alternators require more belt tension than generators (more amps = more torque to drive). Even the earlier pump though with its smaller bearing is still reliable in crossflows.

This improvement didn't of course get carried through to the LTC. I believe the Bean cartridge is designed using this larger bearing. The Burton cartridge is not.
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
Peugeot 505 GTI Wagons (5spdx1) (Autox1)
2015 Honda City 5spd.
2cams70
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 938
Joined: 10 Jun 2015
Location: Australia
Next

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests