Lotus Elan

Low Oil pressure.

PostPost by: vstibbard » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:42 am

here here Alan, it easy and will definitely point you in the right direction.
Last edited by vstibbard on Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: billwill » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:17 am

alanr wrote:Thoughts..
I haven't seen anywhere in this long rambling thread where the engine oil pressure has been double checked and confirmed that the oil pressure is actually low or non-existant. Just relying on what the gauge in the car tells you is not good enough for analysis of the problem.
I would take the gauge sender switch on the block out and connect up a mechanical hand held gauge and start the engine and definitely confirm that you do have an oil pressure problem before going any further!

Alan



It's an S3 Coupe, so the pressure gauge is non-electrical bourdon gauge type.. These tend to work, or else to leak oil everywhere.

No oil leak from that part.

Top cam chamber seems to be very 'dry'.

The manner in which the needle bobbed up & down a bit during the low pressure indication just before I switched off the engine indicated to me that there is nothing wrong with the gauge itself.

However I think I do have another old dashboard gauge off a Morris Minor somewhere in my spares so I will give that a try later. No point until the rest of the bits arrive.
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PostPost by: vstibbard » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:25 am

I stored a S4 SE I owned years ago while travelling for a year, I'd just completed restoration including rebuild with head by Ed Winter and bottom end by QED who also ran the engine in and set it up on dyno, I'd done about 5000 miles in it post restoration with no issues. When I returned, I I carefully I replaced oil, oil and fuel filters, plugs, checked points, primed oil pump with oil and vaseline, fresh fuel, bled brakes etc all fine, turned engine on starter with no plugs and oil pressure came up, refitted plugs and started it up and gently warmed the car, no issues.

A few days later I was headed to Cranbrook in Kent, I made if down past Sevenoaks when the oil pressure disappeared and engined stopped immediately.

When I got it home, I found metal in the oil... I removed the oil pump and the gear had failed which locked the pump and damaged the distributor drive as well. No idea why as the pump was replaced when the engine was rebuilt and was supplied by Ken at QED at the time. I ended up stripping, cleaning block, head and replacing all bearings, timing chain, cam and layshaft gears oil pump and distributor. When reinstalled it ran faultlessly.

I note now that many racers replace the oil pump and distributors gears....

I look forward to learning the cause in due course.

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PostPost by: el-saturn » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:00 am

the PO of my car "modified" (by bending the flange a bit) the chassis in that area to make sure you can get the pump out - 3 bolts -------- but this is a hart dry sump pump sandy
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PostPost by: 512BB » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:39 am

Leslie[/quote]
Why do you think the Rubber hose is there Leslie?

The words g/mother, eggs and suck spring to mind.

I've read on here (from people sharing information on how to solve issues, not telling others what can't be done...) that you can remove the pump end plate, pack with petroleum jelly & then the pump will prime. Worth a try?

Well no, because the oil pump was working and the gauge showed pressure, so the pump will obviously prime itself, especially if it primed itself after a long layoff,

'I haven't seen anywhere in this long rambling thread where the engine oil pressure has been double checked and confirmed that the oil pressure is actually low or non-existant. Just relying on what the gauge in the car tells you is not good enough for analysis of the problem.'

If you look back to the first page Alan and Vaughan, I did suggest that.

The picture you show Bill, of the oil can, will not generate enough oil pressure to fill all the galleries, or ANY of the galleries. You need something similar to what I show, something a bit more butch :lol: When I squirt oil into the take off with it, you can see oil coming out of the bearings on the cams and hear oil trickling out of the main bearings into the sump.

And just to take note of, as I explained to Alex B one time, when he was not able to get oil pressure showing on the gauge after an oil change or an engine rebuild, I don't remember which, when spinning over with the plugs out, that sometimes happens. So long as you have pumped some oil into the galleries, just fit the plugs and start the engine. Pressure will soon come up, so long as there is not a fault in the system.

And yes Joe, everyone fills the filter......don't they?

The distance between the horizontal flanges on an Elan Alan, is 49.5cm and on the vertical 56.5cm. The distance on a +2 is 51cm between flanges and 59cm on the vertical, so you coiuld drive the proverbial bus through those differences, in terms of oil pump removal.

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PostPost by: billwill » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:23 pm

What do they call that tool & where might one get one ?

I tried to find an oil-gun a while ago (to use to oil the trunnions) without success.


Maybe I can modify an old brake or clutch master cylinder to perform as a gallery-priming pump. I have some old ones of those and I have some spare brake pipes.

It's difficult getting tools & stuff during virus lockdown. Improvisation rules OK during isolation. :?

Pumping high-ish pressures into the gallery worries me a little because, if there is crud in the oilways, the higher pressure will force it forward packing it tighter. Ideally one would want to apply the oils the other way around, from the cam bearings backwards to the oil pump (removed) so that any crud is cleared out into bigger & bigger passageways until it falls out into the sump or a bucket.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh bye the way, I did not mention before, but my oil pump on the engine is one of the later ones with the screw-on filter cartridge.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:49 pm

Mine is a little different, theory is. Stubborn, or hardened nipples require a whack from a hammer. So you fill the tube with heavy oil, and tap it with a hammer. Or, in this case push with thumb. As you shouldn’t require much pressure.

I could not find any oilers like that. The only thing would be a pressurized bleed device for clutch/brake. Which should give enough flow.

Again, mine is a bit different. But i think this grease rejuvenator could work?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/IPA-7862H-Grea ... B0000AXDB3
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PostPost by: billwill » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:00 pm

Indeed that device, since it has tight joints will probably do the trick, though I would use thin flushing oil not thick oil.

Unfortunately it is out of stock with that supplier & no date for new stocks.

Something to aquire later perhaps.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:07 pm

Surely there are similar available products. Someone will post you a loaner!
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:14 pm

billwill wrote:What do they call that tool & where might one get one ?


quick internet search gave this (no affiliation) : Suction Vacuum Transfer Handheld Syringe Gun Pump
https://www.amazon.com/JTC-AUTO-TOOLS-Transfer-Extractor/dp/B07L4FH1YH

even with a half liter capacipy, for getting any oil pressure one would need to pump rather fast and someone to check a blip on the gauge, oil will flow even when cold. That might help to bring some oil to the bearings, but I would check on the pump side now (filter/pump) from what you've told (fluctuating pressure), if the oil is of good quality upon flushing that is...
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PostPost by: billwill » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:25 pm

At first thought, I thought. "Suction device" no thats the wrong way around but then a second thought: perhaps using a suction device first would do what I mentioned above, i.e make any residual oil & crud in the oil-ways get sucked backwards into the device, clearing the oil-ways to be filled forwards with a pressure device afterwards.


~~~~
I had no idea that this topic would ramble on so long. I guess we are getting bored sitting around trying to keep 'dry' in a sea of viruses (or should that be virii).
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PostPost by: billwill » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:56 pm

Aha, among the tools I acquired from my late father's workshop, I've found one that will do the trick.

Its a grease gun with a screw-in plunger, so it can produce many PSI. It has a weird universal linkage on it and a strange grease attachment so at first I ruled it out, but yesterday I found that the end of the wobbly pipes that fits into the barrel actually unscrews and has the same thread as brake pipes, so I will be able to attach a pipe to my oil-pressure gauge take off and screw a lot of flushing oil into the galleries.

There's lots of grease in it at present, so it's going to be a mucky job cleaning it out to take oil instead, but someone's go to do it. :?

Greaser.jpg and
High Pressure Greaser
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:08 am

billwill wrote:Aha, among the tools I acquired from my late father's workshop, I've found one that will do the trick.

Its a grease gun with a screw-in plunger, so it can produce many PSI. It has a weird universal linkage on it and a strange grease attachment so at first I ruled it out, but yesterday I found that the end of the wobbly pipes that fits into the barrel actually unscrews and has the same thread as brake pipes, so I will be able to attach a pipe to my oil-pressure gauge take off and screw a lot of flushing oil into the galleries.

There's lots of grease in it at present, so it's going to be a mucky job cleaning it out to take oil instead, but someone's go to do it. :?

Greaser.jpg


Waste of time using flushing oil. That snake oil usually does more harm than good. Just remove the oil filter and check the oil pump pressure relief valve. It's a 1 minute job once the filter is removed. Depending on the result of the inspection decide what further to investigate from there. I assume of course that you've already confirmed that the oil pressure guage is accurate
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PostPost by: englishmaninwales » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:26 am

englishmaninwales wrote:From memory, I think with the oil filter off you can see the piston for the relief valve - then determine if it’s stuck open.


Take a look at the view of the oil filter housing in Rohan’s engine tear down thread, as I thought you can see the relief valve piston; maybe possible to see if it’s stuck open?

I’ve tended to avoid flushing oils, largely from my father’s view many years ago, but maybe someone with more reliable / upto knowledge on them will be along soon to allay my fears.
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PostPost by: Matt Elan » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:51 pm

Just a quick note - the front of the Elan and Plus 2 chassis are exactly the same. The only differences are the longer central transmission tunnel and wider rear cross member to space out the Plus 2s suspension top mounts to accommodate the wider track. At the front the Plus 2s longer wishbones do the job.
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