Water pump bolt: I'll be going in there, won't I?

PostPost by: The Veg » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:36 pm

As I said in the oil leak discussion, I was checking bolts all over the front of the engine for tightness. One particular bolt wasn't the leak but proved to have a different problem.

The one sticking out of its hole a little is the problem. It was all the way in when I put the spanner on the head, but as soon as I applied the slightest torque I knew something was very wrong.

Obviously the water pump has to come out to properly fix this. The question is, how critical is it? Should it be done before any further running, or can it wait until I have another reason to go in there?
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:23 pm

Not an unusual problem. Typically it's caused by coolant seeping between the threads of the bolt and the threads in the block and corrosion causing things to sieze up. That's why I always use sealant on water pump bolts on any engine (not just LTC) when reassembling.

I mentioned this in my previous post about the Burton Water pump and also suggested a suitable sealant. Problem for you is going to be trying to extract the broken bit still in the block. You won't really know the state of things until you disassemble.
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PostPost by: The Veg » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:25 pm

Well, I'm in there now and here is the remains of the bolt. I don't see any sign of corrosion, and this engine was rebuilt not that many miles ago, so I suspect that it was just plain over-torqued.

Wish me luck getting it out!

And I will take utmost care with the new bolt.
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PostPost by: The Veg » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:40 pm

Looks like I got lucky.

Moments after making the previous post, I clamped the small mole-grip on the stub, took a moment to focus, and carefully applied some torque.

And it came right out. Easily.

HUGE sigh of relief, as every time I've tried to use so-called EZ-Outs, they've broken off.

Looking at the tip of the bolt, the first thread or two seem a little deformed, which seems to support the over-torque theory. Makes me wonder why it got torqued so tight, especially since so many other that I had removed to get in this far were so loose.
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PostPost by: ncm » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm

I would check the length of the remains of that bolt to see if it was too long and has bottomed out in the hole.
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:43 pm

typical tool to try would be a bolt extractor (after driling a hole smaller than the thread) : if it is just broken and not corroded at the bottom it should go easily (apply lube and go easy, esp. if cheap bolt extractor as it can be brittle)
---- edit I see you got it out while I was typing ... must not have been too bad this time around ;)
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PostPost by: The Veg » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:18 am

Since corrosion causing problems here got mentioned, what's the collective wisdom for preventing that with the new bolt?
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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:22 am

ncm wrote:I would check the length of the remains of that bolt to see if it was too long and has bottomed out in the hole.
Brian.


You and Brian are on the money. The bolt was too long, the threads in the bottom of the hole are not completely finished. The threads of the bolt deformed on the unfinished threads. The bolt may also have been overtorqued.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:21 am

I normally use Loctite Nickel antisieze on bolts where corrosion is an issue and you dont need to use a thread locking compound.

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PostPost by: alan.barker » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:20 am

ncm wrote:I would check the length of the remains of that bolt to see if it was too long and has bottomed out in the hole.
Brian.

+1 for me also bottomed out and then tightened too much.
Hole in block needs checking for debris and depth.
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:39 am

The Veg wrote:Since corrosion causing problems here got mentioned, what's the collective wisdom for preventing that with the new bolt?


I use Permatex High Performance thread sealant because it has minimal effect on the design coefficient of friction between the threads and hence the clamping load for any given applied torque. Nickel anti seize significantly reduces it therefore if you tighten the bolt at the specified 15 ft/lb for the 5/16" bolt it will actually be over torqued when using Nickel Antiseize. Nickel Antiseize also is not a thread sealant as such and the high temperature properties of Nickel Antiseize are not required for a water pump bolt.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:44 pm

2cams70 wrote:
The Veg wrote:Since corrosion causing problems here got mentioned, what's the collective wisdom for preventing that with the new bolt?


I use Permatex High Performance thread sealant because it has minimal effect on the design coefficient of friction between the threads and hence the clamping load for any given applied torque. Nickel anti seize significantly reduces it therefore if you tighten the bolt at the specified 15 ft/lb for the 5/16" bolt it will actually be over torqued when using Nickel Antiseize. Nickel Antiseize also is not a thread sealant as such and the high temperature properties of Nickel Antiseize are not required for a water pump bolt.


Quoted torques for bolts are usually for "lightly oiled threads" what ever that means. Actual bolt load for typical commercial bolts will vary +/- 50% for the same torque due to variation of coefficent of friction due to a huge range of factors such as accuracy of thread profile , clearance tolerances, thread surface finish, EP lubricating property of the surface lubricant, speed of tightening.

I dont believe there is any significant risk of over tightening bolts simply through using anti-sieze. The bigger risk is breaking bolts during dismantling when they rust into location. Where you need a thread locker due to the design of the joint or a thread sealant due to the bolt going into a chamber with oil and water rather than into a blind hole I would use the appropriate locker or sealant. Where the bolt thread can corrode into place and a sealant or locker is not needed I use an anti-sieze. In places like the UK if you don't use Anti-sieze on all the chassis and suspension bolts especially you will soon regret it once you have to pull it apart again. Not so critical in Australia especially if you live in a warm dry place and only drive the car on nice sunny weekends but still advisable.

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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:10 am

You only need Nickel or copper based Anti sieze in high temperature applications (eg. Exhaust systems). For the majority of other applications you are better off using a thread sealant or threadlocker wherever there is a risk of moisture penetrating the threads and causing corrosion. The sealant/thread locker will completely eliminate the chance of oxygen and moisture entering - the two ingredients combined that cause corrosion. Metal based anti seize most certainly will affect effect the torque vs clamping load vs bolt stretch relationship. There are better products to use when high temperature is not a factor.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:07 am

Each to their own approach I guess

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