Lotus Elan

And the craziness goes on (oil)

PostPost by: MarkDa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:10 am

Right- so I asked them and it's commercially sensitive!!
Here's what Martin Gough wrote back:

Could you please tell us a little more about yourself and the classic(s) you drive please as we consider this to be proprietary information about the formulation of our products which could be useful to competitors.
I would mention that we have, in our opinion, optimised the ZDDP level for classic cars: Levels of 1600ppm have been seen to result in stiction on rig components whereas levels lower than 1,000 have been shown to be insufficient.??
Research has shown that the zinc phosphate plates out to around 2 micron, forming a barrier for sacrificial wear and that our product does this extremely well.

[email protected]

So somewhere between 1000 and 1600 ppm!

I guess it'll be fine and Rohan makes the point that base oil is most important.
MarkDa
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: Stroud

PostPost by: JonB » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:17 am

Fascinating discourse on this thread. Keep it up... :D
User avatar
JonB
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2106
Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Location: South Coast, UK

PostPost by: Geoffers71 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:53 am

FWIW I use Valvoline VR1 racing 20-50. It has excellent reviews for road and track use for classic vehicles. The ZDDP level is 1300 ( although I hadn't a clue what that meant before this thread) and it can be had for around ?30 for 5 litres if you shop around.
1965 Elan S2 (26/4726)
2002 Elise S2 (now sold :-()
1970 Scimitar GTE
"The older I get the better I was !"
Geoffers71
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 414
Joined: 06 Feb 2014
Location: Plymouth, England

PostPost by: Craven » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Seems their Free measuring jug lasted longer than them, at least 35 yrs and still in use.
p1030272.jpg and
Craven
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1092
Joined: 14 Sep 2013
Location: south coast uk

PostPost by: denicholls2 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

My understanding is that formulations for diesel engines (which do not have catalysts) are higher in ZDDP due to the higher forces involved in their high-compression. Seems to me that an oil formulation for that engine type would not be excessive in ZDDP content but wouldn't have the dramatic reduction associated with the other market oils designed for emissions engines.

Then again, Congress didn't tell us that the ethanol they put in gasoline to make midwestern farmers wealthier would cause corrosion and shorten engine life. And the oil manufacturers didn't tell us that EPA-sponsored reductions in ZDDP would be damaging to all but roller tappet engines that did not exist in the sixties.

I like the idea of neither panicking nor becoming too complacent about legislated changes in engine chemistry. In these parts you cannot throw the typical politician very far.
denicholls2
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 587
Joined: 23 Jan 2006

PostPost by: MarkDa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:47 pm

Latest update from Martin Gough after I told him I had an Elan Sprint.

"Duckham's held an original recommendation for the Elan. The ZDDP level is 1200 to 1400 ppm.
A lot more than modern PCMO but respecting that there is an upper limit. Unfortunately, there are competitors saying "the more, the better" but we do not believe that to be the case."

So now we know!
Mark
MarkDa
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: Stroud

PostPost by: Davidb » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:06 pm

If you have nothing to do for a couple of days you could try reading the oil thread on the Porsche forum-with particular attention to cnavarro who is an oil researcher:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... -oils.html

Then there is the "Bob is the Oil Guy" site:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/u ... p?ubb=cfrm

I used to drive a 911-sold it right before the prices went ballistic...
'65 S2 4844
Davidb
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 871
Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPost by: The Veg » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:52 am

denicholls2 wrote:My understanding is that formulations for diesel engines (which do not have catalysts) are higher in ZDDP due to the higher forces involved in their high-compression. Seems to me that an oil formulation for that engine type would not be excessive in ZDDP content but wouldn't have the dramatic reduction associated with the other market oils designed for emissions engines.


As a data-point, I know that there's a good number of owners of older BMW motorbikes (which also have a flat-tappet design) who swear by Rotella.

In these parts you cannot throw the typical politician very far.


Agreed!
:mrgreen:
1969/70 Elan Plus 2 (not S) 50/2036
"It just wouldn't be a complete day if I didn't forget something!" -Me
User avatar
The Veg
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1524
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Location: Atlanta 'burbs (southeast USA)

PostPost by: StressCraxx » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:08 am

nmauduit wrote:
rgh0 wrote:Additives are then used to improve the base oil performance for all the groups. For example the Viscosity index for group 1 to 3 base oils are often improved by adding masticated ( very finely chopped up ) polyethylene dissolved in the oil base stock.

Hi Rohan,

thank you for your posts. Do you have an opinion on the "shockproof" route from Redline, esp. for a highly stressed gearbox ? I understand the small particles would wear out quite rapidly under racing condition, would that mean oil change as frequent as every couple hours ?


I have used the Redline Shockproof in my Hewland. Once. I noticed I had more metal in the oil and on the magnets inside the box that I ever did with Mobil 75w90 or Valvoline 75w90. So I asked Scotty at Taylor Race Engineering who rebuilt the gearbox in my car. He told me that the transmissions he rebuilds run on Shockproff oils look like the bearings and gears have been run on water. I have used the Redline 75w90 gl5 gear oil and it works fine, both in my Elan box and diff and in the Hewland Mk 9 on my Crossle.
There is no cure for Lotus, only treatment.
User avatar
StressCraxx
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:39 am

Davidb wrote:If you have nothing to do for a couple of days you could try reading the oil thread on the Porsche forum-with particular attention to cnavarro who is an oil researcher:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... -oils.html

Then there is the "Bob is the Oil Guy" site:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/u ... p?ubb=cfrm

I used to drive a 911-sold it right before the prices went ballistic...


A few further thoughts on oils and ZDDP and cam to tappet wear , I hope people dont find the detail boring :D


cnavarrow appears to be a Porsche engine builder who has done some testing of oils on Porsche enngines he builds. The data I can see is pretty generic and does not adequately address the many aspect that affect engine wear and in particular boundary lubrication wear of sliding hardened metal on metal surfaces such as cams and followers where ZDDP is helpful. Also since he appears to be building modified and race engines the components, tolerances and loads will be different from road engines and without these sorts of details on the engines being tested any conclusions drawn about good versus bad oils and levels of ZDDP required can be very misleading.

There are many modern flat tappet engines made today that run happily on todays oils. For example my Toyota Landcruiser has 400,000kms now with no cam or tappet wear using what ever was the current oil was over the last 20 years.

The things that prevent cam to follower wear, which is what you are worried about when talking ZDDP levels in a twin cam are as follows in order of importance in my mind.

1. Cast iron to cast iron materials are better than cast iron to steel and both much better than steel on steel in sliding wear. If running a steel cam on a steel follower you need a 10 Rc different in hardness between the two components if possible to help to prevent galling and scuffing wear. Many racing engines using after market components use steel components as cheaper and easier than cast iron in small production runs, unfortunately the makers are often lax about their hardness levels or surface finish achieved

2. Ensuring the surface contact loads are not excessive. Heavy valve springs and high revs and aggressive cam ramp profiles increase the loads making wear worse in racing engines. For a twin cam keep the nose load under 200 lbs and keep the valve train as light as possible with lightweight steel followers, and titanium retainers and your Ok for 9000rpm +

3. Run in the engine properly to allow the cam lobes and follower to polish together. If changing a cam or followers its best to change both the cam and followers as a set and dont use a new cam with old followers or an old cam with new followers unless you get them checked and ground back to the correct profile and surface finish. Use a proper running in oil with the correct high levels of ZDDP which stops galling and scuffing during the critical run in period. Phosphate treating steel components or DLC ( Diamond Like Coating) treating steel components also helps during run in especially in if your pushing the nose load limits

4. Finally you get to the normal operating oil. A higher ZDDP level in the 1000 to 16000 ppm range does not hurt but the lower levels in modern oils do not appear to be an issue in a standard or most modified twin cam or most modern DOHC flat tappet vertical engines if the above three points are followed. My main concern with the oil I use is its temperature stability not its ZDDP level as the oil gets very hot as the oil is sheared between the bearing surfaces and a good quality Group 4 or Group 5 base stock oil retains its properties better in these conditions.

The reported issues that have driven the marketing craze for high ZDDP levels appear to be with engines with poorer tappet lubrication , typically where its inverted as in American V8's or push rod engines and on its side like a Porsche engine. I have not seen any credible reports of wear issues on properly built vertical DOHC flat tappet engines, but would be interested to see any if they exist. Also most of the reports of problems I have read come from modified engine builders where the adherence to the first 3 critical factors is not probably achieved by some.

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7513
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:50 am

nmauduit wrote:
rgh0 wrote:Additives are then used to improve the base oil performance for all the groups. For example the Viscosity index for group 1 to 3 base oils are often improved by adding masticated ( very finely chopped up ) polyethylene dissolved in the oil base stock.

Hi Rohan,

thank you for your posts. Do you have an opinion on the "shockproof" route from Redline, esp. for a highly stressed gearbox ? I understand the small particles would wear out quite rapidly under racing condition, would that mean oil change as frequent as every couple hours ?


My understanding is that the Redline shock proof oils use very fine particles of teflon to help maintain the boundary layer lubrication on gear teeth. I believe it is not the best oil to use in a manual synchro gear box and MTL or MT90 has a better balance of properties for synchro operation and bearing and gear lubrication. It may be helpful in a heavily loaded hypoid diff with the sliding motion between the gear teeth compared to the rolling motion in a gear box but I have never used it a Redline 75W/90 works just fine in my diffs. Maybe you could use it in a dog gearbox with no synchros but I think I personally would just try a heavier weight oil first e.g. try the heavier weight version of MTL or MT90 .

Do the teflon particles get broken down rapidly and thus any benefit they may have rapidly disappears? I dont know -- you would have to talk to the Redline engineers about that question.

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7513
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: nmauduit » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:37 am

rgh0 wrote:My understanding is that the Redline shock proof oils use very fine particles of teflon to help maintain the boundary layer lubrication on gear teeth. I believe it is not the best oil to use in a manual synchro gear box and MTL or MT90 has a better balance of properties for synchro operation and bearing and gear lubrication. It may be helpful in a heavily loaded hypoid diff with the sliding motion between the gear teeth compared to the rolling motion in a gear box but I have never used it a Redline 75W/90 works just fine in my diffs. Maybe you could use it in a dog gearbox with no synchros but I think I personally would just try a heavier weight oil first e.g. try the heavier weight version of MTL or MT90 .

Do the teflon particles get broken down rapidly and thus any benefit they may have rapidly disappears? I dont know -- you would have to talk to the Redline engineers about that question.

cheers
Rohan

Thank you for your feedback, and hint that particles may be teflon.
I should have said this is for my friend's E type with whom I share a workshop - I'm still at the bottom of the learning curve on this, but after only 15 hours the 4 synchro gearbox (helical gears as standard) has spit out a few needles from the bearing between the constant motion shaft and the output shaft, this gearbox looks like a weak point : engine has to go to get at it (over 400kg in total), not a job to do on the side of the track, so I'm considering all options to make sure it can last as much as possible.
I've also seen that some people mix oils to get a different compromise...
S4SE 36/8198
User avatar
nmauduit
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 02 Sep 2013
Location: France

PostPost by: vincereynard » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:34 am

rgh0 wrote:3. Run in the engine properly to allow the cam lobes and follower to polish together. If changing a cam or followers its best to change both the cam and followers as a set and dont use a new cam with old followers or an old cam with new followers unless you get them checked and ground back to the correct profile and surface finish.
cheers
Rohan


Rohan
As it happens I have fitted a new inlet cam and followers, bearings and rings.

So, just to clarify, by running in properly, do you mean the trad. 500 mile gentle rev/ load increase or, as is now generally advised for new rings, some full throttle acceleration runs to fully bed in the rings.

As it happens I filled it initially with Halford Classic before I considered "running in " oil so, for the sake of ?20, I shall probably change it before any serious running.

I've talked to a couple of oil companies and the ZDDP in the running oil is about 800 PPM.

Thanks
Vince
vincereynard
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1217
Joined: 12 Jan 2015
Location: amersham

PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:09 pm

With new rings you need to bed them in to seal the bores , With new cam and followers you need to avoid high revs or extended low rev idling for the first couple of hours of running so that the mating surfaces polish together without scuffing or galling. Use a running in oil during this process. Also use plenty of assembly lube on the cam and followers for the initial start up.

So about 60 minutes of full throttle acceleration runs from around 3000 to 5000 rpm in third will bed in the rings followed by another hour or two of just normal driving to finish polishing in the followers and cams and then you should be Ok to change to the oil of your choice and commence routine use

You get what you pay for in most oils from the big manufactures so generally the more expensive the better. Marketing like "classic oil" or "high ZDDP" oil is general just that and btter to go by price rather than marketing claims. My personal opinion is that the best oil for a road twin cam is a group 4, poly alpha olefin synthetic (PAO) like Mobil 1 or similar specification oil from other companies and Redline group 5 polyol ester oil for a racing twin cam. The minimum specification oil I would use would be a group 3 hydrocracked mineral oil such as Valvoline Synpower which can also be marketed as a "synthetic oil" though it is not a true synthetic IMHO.

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7513
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: nmauduit » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:21 pm

vincereynard wrote:
rgh0 wrote:3. Run in the engine properly to allow the cam lobes and follower to polish together. If changing a cam or followers its best to change both the cam and followers as a set and dont use a new cam with old followers or an old cam with new followers unless you get them checked and ground back to the correct profile and surface finish.
cheers
Rohan


Rohan
As it happens I have fitted a new inlet cam and followers, bearings and rings.

So, just to clarify, by running in properly, do you mean the trad. 500 mile gentle rev/ load increase or, as is now generally advised for new rings, some full throttle acceleration runs to fully bed in the rings.

As it happens I filled it initially with Halford Classic before I considered "running in " oil so, for the sake of ?20, I shall probably change it before any serious running.

I've talked to a couple of oil companies and the ZDDP in the running oil is about 800 PPM.

Thanks
Vince


you can also add some ZDDP for the sake of the cams and buckets during the break in (also helps avoid overheating the valve train part with the "running in" oil)

https://www.redlineoil.com/engine-oil-break-in-additive
S4SE 36/8198
User avatar
nmauduit
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1491
Joined: 02 Sep 2013
Location: France
PreviousNext

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: alan.barker, Andy Hamblin, promotor and 18 guests