Lotus Elan

Help! How do I get the cam dowel out of the sump?

PostPost by: AHM » Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:40 pm

I have been trying one of the telescopic aerial things with a small magnet on the end but there isn't much room around the chain.

Any ideas? other than removing the sump?
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:46 pm

try draining the oil and if it does not come out with the oil then try with your magnet through the sump drain to pick it up.

cheers
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PostPost by: AHM » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:23 am

Thanks Rohan.

Just thinking about it if I jack the car up it should roll back, but it is the wrong side of the baffle - from memory there is a cutout in the corner.

I was having trouble with cam timing. My setup gives repeatable results but when I change dowels I don't get the expected increment. I'm checking the orientation and chain tension might there be something I'm doing wrong. Other than dropping the dowel.
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PostPost by: Chancer » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:43 am

Dont fret about it! - Who am I kidding, of course you will just like I would.

In the past I have fished much larger foreign objects out of sumps during rebuilds and they had never caused problems.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:08 am

AHM wrote:Thanks Rohan.

Just thinking about it if I jack the car up it should roll back, but it is the wrong side of the baffle - from memory there is a cutout in the corner.

I was having trouble with cam timing. My setup gives repeatable results but when I change dowels I don't get the expected increment. I'm checking the orientation and chain tension might there be something I'm doing wrong. Other than dropping the dowel.



Yes you need to think through carefully the adjustment needed. Advancing the cam sprocket retards the cam. Also cams degrees are half crank degrees. The dowels need to go in the correct direction and I you reach the half a tooth limit of the dowels change the chain by one tooth and move in the opposite direction with the dowels. Once set rotate the engine in the normal direction one turn to get the chain tension correctly settled

takes a bit of time the first time but you soon get the hang of it.

cheers
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PostPost by: weddingcarclive » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:24 am

Find yourself a very strong magnet and draw it around the bottom of the sump pan towards the drain plug releasing it at the drain plug hopefully the dowel will be caught and drawn to the drain plug area then drain the oil the flow will then hopefully flush it out
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PostPost by: Elan45 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:03 pm

I just ran into the issue with the offset dowels not giving predictable results on my Formula Jr motor, until I realized they (dowels) are in the cam(S) and I am measuring crankshaft degrees.

If you can't get the dowel out of the sump right now, don't worry about if. It will stay in the sump or come out with a future oil change

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PostPost by: Paul Chapman » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:59 pm

Is there a magnetic sump plug available from anyone for our cars ???
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PostPost by: types26/36 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:06 pm

Paul Chapman wrote:Is there a magnetic sump plug available from anyone for our cars ???


http://www.burtonpower.com/magnetic-sum ... ap-01.html
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PostPost by: Paul Chapman » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:20 pm

Thanks Brian

Looks to be a worthwhile investment.
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PostPost by: prezoom » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:01 pm

This got me to thinking, which can be a very dangerous event. But, I found several bore scopes on ebay that can be connected to your smart phone via various lengths of cable. They have a number of LEDs a magnet on the end, and a diameter of 7mm, which isn't too big. Most have several adapters so you can connect to different devices. Seem to range from $13 on up. Could be a very handy cheap device. Obviously made in China. YMMV.
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PostPost by: billwill » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:22 pm

prezoom wrote:This got me to thinking, which can be a very dangerous event. But, I found several bore scopes on ebay that can be connected to your smart phone via various lengths of cable. They have a number of LEDs a magnet on the end, and a diameter of 7mm, which isn't too big. Most have several adapters so you can connect to different devices. Seem to range from $13 on up. Could be a very handy cheap device. Obviously made in China. YMMV.


I have one of those, but no magnets on it.

I expect you could use one to poke down the timing case and look for the lost dowel. And you could attack a magnet or better still an electromagnet to grab the dowel.

You would probavly need to drain the oil first unless it was brand new & clear.
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PostPost by: AHM » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:24 pm

Thanks for all the replies.
The dowel is still in the sump after several hours... and it is staying there... See if I care!

I tried the strongest magnet I could find and it stuck to sheet of steel but had no effect on the nut on the other side. I tried it anyway!

Also tried the magnetic pointer thing. Lots of oil lots of mess no dowel.

Also tried washing it out several times - oil change style...

I have a magnetic sump plug already so maybe that will get it eventually.

rgh0 wrote:takes a bit of time the first time but you soon get the hang of it.


It took ages to get the exhaust right, then I switched to the Inlet cam. On the third try I forgot to let the tensioner off. Then realised that this would always take up the tolerances in the same place... easy when you get repeatable results.
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PostPost by: billwill » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:34 pm

AHM wrote:
Then realised that this would always take up the tolerances in the same place... easy when you get repeatable results.


If you think about it for a while, you realise that the cam sprocket wheels and timing chain are always in the same position relative to the main crank {and hence TDC}, because this is determined only by the pitch of the timing chain. {assuming that the chain is on the correct cogs and tensioned correctly}.

Then the various cranked dowels move the camshafts relative to the timing chain.
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PostPost by: AHM » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:13 am

Hi Bill,
The problem wasn't the theory it was the inconsistent results due to the tolerance stack cam to dowel, dowel to sprocket, sprocket to cam.

I was precise positioning the dowel and none of the parts are visibly worn. Depending on how it was assembled I could get a 2 degree variation on the exhaust.
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