Alternative radiators again

[vernon.taylor]

Salut

I know this has been discussed a few times, but I didn't find much except a reference to an unspecified Audi unit.

So the question concerns wide and/or aluminium radiators: what is there out there that could fit with just a little hosing re-routing? Specific Elan units cost ?350+ whilst modern car radiators can be had for around ?100. Kool Radiators (eBay) do a full width alluminium Spitfire radiator for that money, but they're US based. Other rads with top left/bottom right inlets/outlets I spied on eBay are Sierra Cosworth and Toyota Supra.

The first question then is:

1. Is there any reason why a modern ally rad can't be used ?

... and the second:

2. Anyone fitted one, or know of one that could ?

A Spitfire site I came across said a Peugeot 205 rad assembly fits well, and also a Renault 12 or Dacia (didn't say which model) fits.

I live in France, and now the weather is turning I'm starting to worry about heatwaves. I haven't had overheating problems, but I haven't been stuck in a sweltering traffic jam.

I know full-width copper Spitfire rads are available and cheap, and also that Cliveboy has got good re-cored wides. A performance narrow ally rad would be ideal.

Merci et @+

Vernon

[garyeanderson]

I can't answer your question as I don't know the plus2 well or your car in particular. That said, on the next warm day while at home in your drive, start the plus2 and let it idle in place for as long as you want and just watch the temp gauge. If and when you start to feel that things are not going well shut it off, it will get warmer as there will be no coolant or air flow at all, I think its called "heat soak" get out of the Plus2 and look under it to see if you are blowing coolent out of the overflow or look into the overflow bottle. See how much is actully there before you start the car and how much is there after. Have a garden hose handy if you feel uncomfortable doing this and you can spray down the exterior of the engine. Use common sence here and don't just walk away and come back later. When the temp gauge needle pay attention to it and see how it moves and how fast and how long it take to get to 100c and then 110c. maybe other can add to this topic too. You don't know if you have a problem yet so just don't go and fix a problem that may not even be one.

Gary

[cal44]

Vernon,

Copper is one of the best heat transferring metals available to the common man. Aluminum is much cheaper and much lighter. My last radiator was built in Arizona where it has been known to get a little warm at times. Its was a two row aluminum. I would prefer a two row copper.

The more rows the less cooling air can be pushed or sucked through. The two row was 3/4" oblong tubes and worked well.
The answer is......there is no answer. A good pusher fan cures most ills (IF) all the other stars are aligned.

If the pusher fan is located about 3/4" away from the radiator it allowed the fan not to bog down trying to push air that couldn't be pushed faster through the rad...........did that make sense?

Of course everyone has an opinion. Doesn't make me right.

Mike

[cliveyboy]

Vernon
Everyone seems to think that aluminium radiators are vastly superior to the original copper brass ones.
As previously mentioned that is not strictly true.
The only advantage I can see is that you can buy a brand new one straight off the shelf
With radiator cooling, it all comes down to the construction and density of the core.
As you mentioned I use the original style radiators.
In my Sprint I have an original S3/ +2 full width radiator which I had recored. I put a two row core in with 10mm tube spacings. This is a very dense matrix with about 57% more cooling tubes over the original ones.
Over in the UK a second hand S3 full width radiator sells for about ?40 and a new core fitted costs about ?140.
For ?180 you have a radiator which will perform as well as anything else on the market and it looks original.
Original S3/Plus 2 radiators are getting hard to find and an alternative is the Triumph Spitfire/Herald radiator they should be readily available and cheap to pick up second hand.
They look similar (but are quite different). You will need to reorientate the inlet/ outlet pipes and when installing it can be trickier and take a bit more fitting as the radiator is 30mm higher. But they will fit into both types of Elan, and once again if you put a decent core into it you have a radiator which will keep the Elan cooled properly and cost should be a lot less than ?300.
On the subject of fitting a radiator from a modern car. If you want it in the original position with the inlet/outlet pipes in the same position you will struggle to find anything. There are only a couple of possibilities on the market and they dont fit too well ( I have tried them).
If you are not worried about looks etc or how the pipes run then you can make anything fit.
Although personally if you are wanting to go down that route then I would just fit a small radiator into the nose cone. Something from a caterham or similar
Clive

[45bvtc]

Something like this, maybe...

[pereirac]

I thought the Elan radiator was a Triumph unit? I bought a replacement Triumph full width unit and had the top pipe rotated 180 degrees. It fitted perfectly without any other modifications? No overheating problems since either.

Carl

[nebogipfel]

I thought the Elan radiator was a Triumph unit? I bought a replacement Triumph full width unit and had the top pipe rotated 180 degrees. It fitted perfectly without any other modifications? No overheating problems since either.

Carl

Both wide and narrow rad's are indeed Stanpart radiators.

As far as I'm aware the top hose outlet is both a different shape and orientated towards the thermostat housing on the Elan. From memory the Triumph application required the outlet to be curved around to point to the offside of the car.

The other difference as I recall is that the filler was relocated from the centre of the header tank to nearer the end, thus slightly reducing the height of the rad'

[stugilmour]

Vernon, one thing to consider is the location of your brake booster(s). For my Federal car with two boosters I was not able to mount an aftermarket unit I bought from RD Enterprises although it would probably fit with the single booster set-up. Issue was location of top inlet. Not sure what your car has?

I went with local re-coring my existing rad, I think as a three row. This is probably the easiest for you in your location as you know it will end up fitting. The rad cap clearance to the bonnet is very small as well.

Also went with a modern pusher fan, Clivey Boy 'stat housing & fan controller, and pressurized expansion tank on my system. If you go this route (or swirl pot if it fits by the boosters) you can go with a rad without a cap or fitting for the Otter switch. Assuming pretty much any aftermarket or other make rad will require some customization for Otter switch fitment?

I found the Plus 2 quite unforgiving for the mounting position of the rad. The bonnet front will foul a more forward mounting position; understand more flexibility in the Elan.

Agree with Gary you may be going to a bunch of effort to solve a non-existent problem. Take the time to idle test the car, confirm the gauge is accurate, recovery system is working correctly, and see if there is an issue. My system probably required no modifications at all, but the gauge reading high and recovery system not working correctly kind of freaked me out.

HTH

[vernon.taylor]

Salut Stu

Still thinking about this - what did you use as your pressurised expansion tank? A mate just gave me a Renault 5 tank and I came across the reference in the archives, too.

Also I take it you mean a tank with a single bottom inlet from the usual overflow stub on the radiator, with a non-valve-type radiator cap?

I suppose the expansion tank cap has some kind of pressure-release, so the next question is how to chose the right one or if it matters. Logic tells me that too high a pressure might blow a gasket.

@+

Vernon

[simonknee]

My personal experience has been lack of airflow at low driving speeds - regardless of radiator.
Twin 10" high power Kenlowe did the trick for me (on a re-cored S3 radiator).

[stugilmour]

Vernon, I used a Volvo expansion tank because of it's flat profile. I think they were on a model 240, and a bunch of other models of Volvo. They use a plastic pressure relief valve; mine is black and I think 1 or 1.2 bar pressure (off of the early Volvo 240's). Later Volvo's used the same tank but higher pressure caps. There is no relief hose from the cap. I think the tank is about 1 liter or so. I mounted it by the pedal box on the left hand side of the car. I selected the Volvo tank at the wrecker 'cus I thought I could fit it in the engine bay.

The plumbing for this type of tank requires a hose tied in to the water pump inlet (tee'd in at the heater hose down by the oil pressure sender and oil pump). I ran the line along the firewall to the bottom of the Volvo expansion tank. A second small diameter line (size of an overflow line to a recovery tank) runs from a high 'still' point in the cooling system to the top of the Volvo expansion tank. I connected the small line to the overflow nipple on a Clivey Boy thermostat housing; this requires using a non-relieving blanking cap (with no internal valving) on the Clivey Boy so the overflow nipple is always open to the coolant stream.

As the Volvo tank has pressure relief, I had the stock radiator cap blanked off when they re-built the radiator. I also blanked off the Otter switch connection as the Clivey Boy has provision for a fan controller.

The idea is any vapour is drawn into the tank and captured in the top of the tank. There is a constant small flow of coolant through this secondary circuit which is parallel to the heater circuit. The flow is pretty small because of the size of the top hose, and I suppose some of the hose space is taken by vapour. The vapour space in the tank allows for coolant expansion as it heats up. The tank is mounted at the highest point in the cooling system, which for the Plus 2 is pretty much at the firewall. There is no need to open the system to check coolant level.

Last time I saw a Renault in action was 20 years ago visiting Montreal, so can't help with that bit.

HTH

[vernon.taylor]

Salut

The expansion tank I was given is like this:

R5 header tank.JPG (8.68 KiB) Viewed 4298 times

As you can see there is just one inlet at the bottom. The Elan owner has installed this in the nose of his car with the bottom inlet connected to the radiator overflow stub, the tank 1/3 full. He has a blanking radiator cap.

His reasoning is that the closed system pushes coolant back into the system when needed, rather than being sucked through the vacuum check valve. He also reckons that trapped air in the system will find it's way into the expansion bottle.

I'm not sure what to think. The result appears the same but without air contamination. It also seems to me that pushing liquid back at more than atmospheric pressure is a good idea, but I guess in the standard system a vacuum one end and atmospheric the other may be the same.

Stu - if you have a photo or two of your installation with the header tank in place and the tee, I'd be really interested.

Merci

Vernon

[elanman999]

If you buy a Spitfire rad for a re-core you could get it shortened by 15 to 20mm at the same time.
As has been said a Spit rad can be a very tight fit. Fitting a Cliveyboy thermostat housing and removing the filler neck on the rad can make all the difference.
Cheers

John

[jono]

I've just fitted a Cliveboy wide rad on my Plus 2 with twin puller fans. It has no filler cap and I used a Ford stat housing with filler cap and threaded boss for the Revotec fan controller (again from Cliveboy).

I had to move the top of the rad forward by about 40mm by re drilling the inner wings but using the original brackets. It all fits fine but the air inlet duct to the carbs is going to be tight

I have fitted one of the smaller type Tudor washer bottles as a recuperation bottle and fitted this to the rad - it all looks 'in period'.

I have checked my rad cap which is the double valve type and I just need to fit a rubber washer to ensure a good seal as covered in a recent post on here.

I will post some pics up when I get a mo.

Jon

[stugilmour]

I'll try for some pics in about a week; the engine & transmission are out right now.