Sticky Starter

[TonyC]

Hello all, what are your thoughts on this problem:

Early Elan +2, using an inertia starter.
The starter has started to 'stick' in recent months (prior to this it hadn't made any excessive noise, etc). The first couple of times it was possible to rock the car in gear and it would unjam.

However, more recently it sticks fast and the only way to free it is to undo the two bolts and smack it/wobble it until it comes free.
So I've replaced the original starter with a recon inertia starter.
The bugger still jams

I've had it off and on the car a few times now, but I dare not use the car now as it will jam virtually straight away.
I'm presuming this is becuase of wear/problems on the ring gear not some bizare starter alignment problem I'm suffering from?

If it is the ring gear, could I resolve the problem by fitting a pre-engaged starter - the reasoning being that it is the 'throw' into the ring gear that is jamming - so because the pre-engaged starter is already meshed with the ring gear it will be less likley to jam.
Obviously I'm asking this as I really don't fancy removing engine, etc to sort the ring gear. Far easier to bung in a different starter

Thanks all

Tony

[type26owner]

Tony,
Not sure this is your problem but here's some advice anyway. We used to have no end of troubles with the Bendix mechanism failing on our racecar. There is a design flaw with them. If the engine kicks back when trying to start the soft stop windup mechanism winds so far that the female thin nut in the gear body breaks into seperate pieces at each multi-start acme thread root and allows it to flex axially. This little extra play (~1/16") due to the sideways flexing is enough so the nut can run off the end of travel of the male thread on the shaft which slides along the keyed shafting and jams because there is the huge spring loading it and it just so happens the spring is also coil-bound at that point. Bottomline is if the nut is broken then it's junk. We tried making our own super-high strength ones but they broke too. If the threaded shaft had been just another 1/8" longer then even with a broken nut it would have worked perfectly. Bad design practice when the primary failure mode is not envisioned or been tested to failure prior to putting it into mass production. Lucas earned their dark cloud reputation on this one. Back in the late sixties there were no high-quality Japanese starters to retrofit.

Modifying the mechanical advance in the dizzy so the intial static timing was set at 0 BTDC mostly stopped the kickback. Got tired of having to bend the lightened steel flywheel back into shape after the Bendix would bash into it. The reason I've described this problem it also could be freed up occasionally by rocking the car back and forth while in gear. Other times the starter had to be removed and brute force applied to rotate the bits back into phase so trap could be reset again.

BTW, if you rotate the Bendix against the light spring and examine the nut, the cracks are easy to spot once you know what to look for. Good chance the repaired starters will not have had the Bendix replaced and are defective and therefore primed and ready to do the dirty one to you. :angry: Same racecar from '67 now has a Tilton SuperStarter and my Elan has the Nippondenso unit.
-Keith

[rickf]

I've gone to a Nippondenso gear reduction type starter. Haven't had any problems with it yet.

[tdafforn]

As an additional, but slightly different problem I have had with the Lucas starter. My new starter just stops sometimes.
The benidix is not engaged and I can get it going again by just turning the spindle on the end a little.
I had the same problem with the old starter, and now the new start does it ..
anyone have any ideas?
Cheers
Tim

[type26owner]

Yup, you've got an open circuit(s) on the armature. Takes a growler tester to check it out though. Usually from the solder being slung out of the windings wire to copper blocks connections on the armature. Easy to overheat the armature and melt the solder since the amount of direct current drawn is excessive. Slide the sheetmetal cover to oneside and you can spot the problem quite easily. Can be resoldered and fixed normally with a massive solder iron. Next problem!

If you don't know what a growler is then do an Ebay search on 'armature_growler' to see one.
-Keith

[rickf]

My humble opinion, for what it's worth: I wouldn't invest any time or money in those old Lucas starters. The basic design goes back to the 1940s or maybe before. I've had to use the hand crank lot's of times to get home with those starters in cars of that period. That design should have been pensioned off 15 or 20 years before the Elan. Put a proper gear reduction starter in and spend your time and money enjoying the car.

[type26owner]

Last time I'll trounce on the Lucas starter......maybe. There is classic electrical problem associated with these units because of the huge current load being drawn while it's cranking. The voltage can drop so low the coil is unable to muster enough spark to fire across the spark plug gap. The battery's output is also affected by the ambient temperature and as it gets colder the output falls off exacerbating this condition. So if it's at all chilly and the battery is not in a topped up state of charge there is a good chance the ignition system could be incapaciatated while cranking. A clue you have this problem is if the instant you stop cranking the engine fires up. Of course cranking and cranking overheats the armature's commutator soldered connections opening up circuits making the situation worse and worse. Many a race weekend ruined because of these starter problems.
-Keith

[twincamman]

well Tony sorry to say the starter is 'pooched' - junk - used up---when they start jamming its time to rebuild or replace sorry ed law

[type36lotus]

I have a gear reduction type and a new ring gear (old one was pretty chewed up). I can crank forever with that little lawn tractor battery in the boot. Ditch the dark ages Lucas unit, get a gear reduction type and never look back. Some things are just not worth keeping for originalities sake.

[types26/36]

Tony,
While I agree the modern gear reduction starters are proberbly very good (I've no experience with them) I do not have problems with the Lucas starters so I wont enter that debate.
Sounds like your problem is a worn ring gear (check by taking out the starter and feeling f/wheel teeth) if thats the case no matter which starter you fit the the problem will still be there and the only answer is engine out and a new ring gear
Brian

[TonyC]

<!--QuoteBegin-types26/36/74+Oct 15 2004, 07:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (types26/36/74 @ Oct 15 2004, 07:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tony,
While I agree the modern gear reduction starters are proberbly very good (I've no experience with them) I do not have problems with the Lucas starters so I wont enter that debate.
Sounds like your problem is a worn ring gear (check by taking out the starter and feeling f/wheel teeth) if thats the case no matter which starter you fit the the problem will still be there and the only answer is engine out and a new ring gear
Brian [/quote]
Bugger [:(]

Cheers all.
"Hello, wife. I'll be busy in the garage this winter...."

[tdafforn]

But I thought that one of the advantages of the pre-engaged starter was that it engaged on the other side of the ring gear, the side not used by the standard starter..
Cheers
Tim

[TonyC]

hehe, that might be a tad difficult as there is no mount or hole on the other side of the gearbox/engine backplate.

I think you are thinking of when ford changed to the pre-engaged starter - they did move it to the other side of the engine, Obviously I can't use those (otherwise I'd have nicked the started from my brothers x-flow engined kit car).

The pre-engaged startes I was referring to as these special lightweight jobbies that are being made that fit on this 'wrong side' of the engine.

[type26owner]

I'm fairly sure Tim has this starter business comprehended correctly. Whats more if the ring gear was not tack welded in place the Bendix would possibly dislodge it from the flywheel.

Anyone ever used the burning cardboard boxes to heat up and install the ring gear technique before? I'd like to know if it's just a wise-tale or not.
-Keith

[types26/36]

Keith,
What is the tale of "the burning cardboard boxes" ? I have only ever used a gas welding tourch and overheated one
Brian