Lotus Elan

Battery : which characteristics origin ?

PostPost by: ben35 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:51 am

Hello,

What were characteristics of our batteries origin on Elan+2 ?

Same battery between Elan Standard and Big valve model ?

Name of the brand : ?
Capacity : Ah ?
Intensity : A ?
Sizes : ?
Voltage : 12V

What model do you have currently ? A, Ah

Thanks
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PostPost by: ben35 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:54 pm

Nobody know original specifications ?
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PostPost by: nigelrbfurness » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:24 am

I expect the proper spec is listed on the appropriate page in the service manual, however I always use an 063 available just about everywhere in my S4. You might get a bigger one in a S1 or S2 behind the seat..
1970 S4SE/1760cc big valve/SA-AX block, L2s, 45DCOEs, 1978 Jensen GT, 1962 AH Sprite, Alfa-Romeo 159, 1966 Bristol Bus, 1947 AEC Regal bus.
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PostPost by: ben35 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:45 pm

To choose a battery, the most important is intensity, "A" : 300A or 400A or 500A etc, but it is not at all same thing. More it is high, more it could damage starter. So it is necessary to know characteristics battery, more specifically to know intensity recommended for a car model.

Capacity battery, it is its automy. 40Ah, 50Ah etc. More it is high, more is good.

I would like to know which intensity, A, was recommended at the origin, for Elan+2 standard ?
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PostPost by: Chancer » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:06 pm

ben35 wrote:To choose a battery, the most important is intensity, "A" : 300A or 400A or 500A etc, but it is not at all same thing. More it is high, more it could damage starter.


Your logic is incorrect.

In fact one could make a case for the opposite, a battery without enough capacity which will struggle to turn the engine over could overheat if the nut behind the wheel kept the key turned to the start position with the starter stalled or barely turning.
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PostPost by: ericbushby » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:11 pm

hello Ben,
Seeing as you asked, these are the details from my workshop manual -
Type Exide 6 VTA 29 L
Capacity 39 AH
I am assuming that all twin cam engines use the same battery and starter motor.

Starter Lucas M. 35 G
Locked current 330/350 amps. this is the current that the battery will have to be capable of delivering for a short time, for it not to be damaged. I think this is what the makers call CCA, which means `cold cranking amps`

As above the current is determined by the design of the starter motor and the load on it not by the battery. The battery has to be capable of at least that.
My battery is Raylite Type 063 44AH with an SAE of 380. ( SAE is new to me, perhaps it is the same as CCA )

For comparison, my Powerlite starter draws 160 amps when cranking a cold engine.

I hope this helps
Eric in Burnley
1967 S3SE DHC
Last edited by ericbushby on Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: ben35 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Chancer wrote:
ben35 wrote:To choose a battery, the most important is intensity, "A" : 300A or 400A or 500A etc, but it is not at all same thing. More it is high, more it could damage starter.


Your logic is incorrect.

In fact one could make a case for the opposite, a battery without enough capacity which will struggle to turn the engine over could overheat if the nut behind the wheel kept the key turned to the start position with the starter stalled or barely turning.



Sorry to contradict you.

In electricity, there is more problems, damages risks, with overvoltage than under voltage.

So, a battery that will loose capacity, intensity, with years is very basic, normal, and we only can't start your car. That's it.

But, to use a big battery, with too high intensity, you can dammage immediately starter and others electrical parts on your car.

My logic is good.



Thanks Eric to give me characteristics battery :
Battery model : Exide 6 VTA 29 L
Capacity : 39 Ah
Voltage : 12 V

And for intensity : it is between 330/350 A
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PostPost by: ericbushby » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:51 pm

I`m with Chancer.
The voltage is fixed at 12 volts, so the current drawn depends on the load and any circuit resistance.
The maximum current that the battery can give without being damaged itself depends on it`s internal design.
If the voltage was higher you would be right, but they are all 12 volt batteries. Some batteries are capable of giving more current if required.
I have used the 800 Amp battery off my Volvo diesel car to start the lotus with no problems, It is still only a 12 volt battery and the current will still only be 160 Amps.
Eric in Burnley.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:56 pm

Sorry Ben,
But you have got yourself confused between Current & Voltage.
A battery of too high of voltage will or could cause damage as this would result in excess current flow.
Battery capacity quoted is usually the RESERVE capacity, given in AMP/Hours. A 36 amp battery will provide a reserve of 1 amp for 36 Hours.
High current rating ie 300/400 etc is the maximum current the battery can provide before the terminal voltage drops below a given point at a given temperature.
Ron.
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PostPost by: Chancer » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:15 pm

ben35 wrote:
Sorry to contradict you.

In electricity, there is more problems, damages risks, with overvoltage than under voltage.


But, to use a big battery, with too high intensity, you can dammage immediately starter and others electrical parts on your car.



voltage = tension

current = intensit? (du courante)

Ben. Je crois que vous ?tes confondu entre tension et l'intensit? (current & voltage) je suis d'accord qu'un batterie de 24 volts endommagera les components ?lectriques mais ? l'exception de rares batteries pour les poids lourds tout les batteries pour nos bagnoles sont de 12 volts.

Cordialement

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PostPost by: ben35 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:44 pm

Sorry for my english and terms, words used.

As I said, in electricity, there are more problems, damages risks, with overvoltage than under voltage.

So, use a big battery, with too high Voltage (not intensity) can to cause damages.

Use a battery with more intensity (A) than origin, it isn't a problem for starter, because it is necessary to explain that intensity consumed depends from equipments car (starter, lights, radio etc) and not of the source of energy (battery).

But with a too small intensity (A) battery, it is a problem. That is reason that we have to know intensity recommanded.

In 2002,2003, European Norms (EN) had changed, and their tests intensities : EN50342 replaces EN60095-1. Now, we see letters EN next intensity value.
It seems that an old battery with "400A" for example, represents "600A EN" (1,5 coeficient).

=> I have just seen this information, but I will prefer that somebody confirm that it is good or not. Is there anybody who know this modification between very old and recent batteries ?

About capacity (Ah), as I said, we can increase it, that is better, we increase its autonomy (reserve). We have more reserve for cold starts.
Lest's take an example, 80Ah
In theory, we tell often, "it can provide 80A during 1h".
In reality, it isn't exact because the discharge time battery is not linear, it is inversely proportional to the current asked.
For reglementation, batteries are tested by batchs 20h. So, we have to tell, an 80Ah battery will provide 4A during 20h, and 80A during arround 45min, and 1A during arround 100h.

Ben
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PostPost by: nigelrbfurness » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:38 am

There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings going on here regarding how car batteries work. The terminal voltage of the battery is determined by the number of cells, and most car batteries are the same (I won't say all because then someone will contradict me) at around 13.6v off load and requires a charger voltage of at least 13.8v. What varies with the battery size is the CURRENT capacity available instantaneously. The current is drawn from the battery by the load and determined by the size of the load R - as Mr. Ohm put it, I (current) = V/R. If you try to draw more current from a battery than it can supply, the voltage drops. Any standard 12v car battery will start an Elan providing it can supply the starter motor current + ignition circuit current at the instant the solenoid drops in. End of, as they say. The only over-voltage issues you might encounter are from an unloaded or unregulated (faulty) alternator and even then the battery will tend to sink the output from the alternator and boil, although prolonged failures of this kind will eventually damage other components.
1970 S4SE/1760cc big valve/SA-AX block, L2s, 45DCOEs, 1978 Jensen GT, 1962 AH Sprite, Alfa-Romeo 159, 1966 Bristol Bus, 1947 AEC Regal bus.
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PostPost by: Davidb » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:21 am

If you have an Elan S1 or S2 and you fit a Safety Devices roll bar you will find the space available for the battery is now reduced by half. I found the solution as a result of a post on this forum (by dbutler I think):
http://www.batterysharks.com/SigmasTek- ... -350-d.htm

I have been using this battery in my car this year, it has 350cca and takes up very little space. The above appears to be a special deal.
'65 S2 4844
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PostPost by: pauljones » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:01 am

I know less about this electricery stuff than i do about computers.

What i do know is this,

I have fitted an Extreme Odysee PC1100 battery in my plus 2. It starts amazingly quickly and is half the size of the origonal one. Its not cause any damage to any components, but why would it?

Highly recommended item.
Kick the tyres and light them fires...!!!!!!!
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PostPost by: jk952 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:03 pm

I have a Deka: EXT 30L 400 cca in my 7, has been stored for two winters now and used in the summers, and have never had to charge it! Also weighs about 19 lb if I recall some 5 or more pounds lighter than the small car battery as I have in the Elan. When the Elan one gets tired I will buy a Deka for it too.
AGM technology as Odessy, Deka made in US and used so I was told for Harley's.

Jack
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