Dip Beam Relay - Dip Switch got me down!
15 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Post by: brandon » Wed May 04, 2011 1:49 am
Since I purchased my 1970 +2S (Federal) last year, I've been having problems with the headlights. Most critical is that the headlamps only come on intermittently. This was a problem when I purchased the car, and the previous owner thought that it was an issue with the dip switch in the steering column. Last weekend I finally decided to try to sort things out, and started by taking the dip switch out of the steering column to test it. Before disconnecting the wires, I tried fiddling with the switch, and sure enough the headlamps would flicker on and off. Bad connection in the switch??? Problem Solved???
I disconnected the wires and pulled the unit out with the intention to replace, but was unable to find one with the usual suspects in my area (Canada/US). My next thought was to try and rebuild, or find someone else to rebuild the original. Off to the Service Manual I go with my multimeter and dip switch in hand. Looking at the the Elan +2S (Federal, Generator) wiring diagram I find this:
After lengthy decryption and brow scratching, I concluded 3 things...
1) There were 4 wires coming from the dip switch, instead of the 3 shown in the diagram;
2) Of the 4 wires coming from the actual dip switch, only three had been connected to anything (the 4th end being tucked under the electrical tape);
3) 3 of the 4 wires were the correct colours, with the "tucked under" 4th being the extra.
Flipping a little further through the book, I took a peek at the Federal +2S130 diagram and found this:
Wrong car... but 4 wires and all the colours match up. I took a look under the dash, and could not find anywhere to hook up the 4th brown wire, as one would expect from the diagram.
I have no way of knowing for certain if this dip switch is original to the car or not. However given the 4th wire and the fact that the S130 is a later model vehicle, would I be correct in assuming it HAS been replaced at some point? If so, is this part of my intermittent headlamp problem and should I replace it with the "proper" dip switch?
As I'm unclear how the dip switch is supposed to work, I'm not quite sure how to tackle this one...
brandon
I disconnected the wires and pulled the unit out with the intention to replace, but was unable to find one with the usual suspects in my area (Canada/US). My next thought was to try and rebuild, or find someone else to rebuild the original. Off to the Service Manual I go with my multimeter and dip switch in hand. Looking at the the Elan +2S (Federal, Generator) wiring diagram I find this:
- +2S Diagram (Federal)
After lengthy decryption and brow scratching, I concluded 3 things...
1) There were 4 wires coming from the dip switch, instead of the 3 shown in the diagram;
2) Of the 4 wires coming from the actual dip switch, only three had been connected to anything (the 4th end being tucked under the electrical tape);
3) 3 of the 4 wires were the correct colours, with the "tucked under" 4th being the extra.
Flipping a little further through the book, I took a peek at the Federal +2S130 diagram and found this:
- +2S130 Diagram (Federal)
Wrong car... but 4 wires and all the colours match up. I took a look under the dash, and could not find anywhere to hook up the 4th brown wire, as one would expect from the diagram.
I have no way of knowing for certain if this dip switch is original to the car or not. However given the 4th wire and the fact that the S130 is a later model vehicle, would I be correct in assuming it HAS been replaced at some point? If so, is this part of my intermittent headlamp problem and should I replace it with the "proper" dip switch?
As I'm unclear how the dip switch is supposed to work, I'm not quite sure how to tackle this one...
brandon
- brandon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Post by: stugilmour » Wed May 04, 2011 4:51 am
brandon:
I may have an extra three wire column switch around if you can't get your's cleaned up adequately with contact cleaner.
The extra Brown wire is probably not required for your set-up. It is Brown - Hot at all times - Unfused. Modern practice would use Purple - Hot at all times - Fused for this function. It is a supply wire for a flash to pass. However, you need a way to get the vacuum valve switched to get the pods up to use this feature in a Lotus (assuming you have fail safe pods). Would leave it taped off securely in the switch pigtail. Either the four wire or three wire switch should work fine in your application (providing it is working correctly).
The column switch looks OK to me. They are the same as a Triumph Spitfire, circa 1968. There is a Moss part number for them, but they are very expensive, like $170. They also come up frequently on eBay under Triumph listings. say $60 or so. They come in three wire or four wire by Triumph Spitfire model year; can probably dig up the Moss part numbers if you require.
Other wire colours are:
If you suspect the column switch is flaky, would recommend checking out the circuit manually using alligator leads first to make sure this is the only problem.
HTH Let me know if you need more info. Hard to describe but quite easy to get right.
I may have an extra three wire column switch around if you can't get your's cleaned up adequately with contact cleaner.
The extra Brown wire is probably not required for your set-up. It is Brown - Hot at all times - Unfused. Modern practice would use Purple - Hot at all times - Fused for this function. It is a supply wire for a flash to pass. However, you need a way to get the vacuum valve switched to get the pods up to use this feature in a Lotus (assuming you have fail safe pods). Would leave it taped off securely in the switch pigtail. Either the four wire or three wire switch should work fine in your application (providing it is working correctly).
The column switch looks OK to me. They are the same as a Triumph Spitfire, circa 1968. There is a Moss part number for them, but they are very expensive, like $170. They also come up frequently on eBay under Triumph listings. say $60 or so. They come in three wire or four wire by Triumph Spitfire model year; can probably dig up the Moss part numbers if you require.
Other wire colours are:
- Blue - Hot with light switch on - supply to column switch
- Blue/White - 'Main' beam or High beam - to high beam relay control (recommended) or high beam filament
- Blue/Red - 'Dip' beam or Low beam - to low beam relay control (recommended) or low beam filament
If you suspect the column switch is flaky, would recommend checking out the circuit manually using alligator leads first to make sure this is the only problem.
HTH Let me know if you need more info. Hard to describe but quite easy to get right.
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
-
stugilmour - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Post by: brandon » Wed May 04, 2011 6:37 pm
Stu,
Thank you greatly. It is indeed the failsafe setup (sorry I left that info out). I was not aware of the brown & purple hot at all times thing. This could prove very useful in other areas.
The switch is definitely flaky, so I?ll test as you describe. However, can I assume by ?blue? you meant brown/red? Also, looking at the diagram would my slightly revised description be accurate?
? Brown/red - Hot with ignition switch on - supply to column dip switch
? Blue/White - 'Main' beam or High beam - to high beam relay control (recommended) or high beam filament. This would be with the arm in the up position.
? Blue/Red - 'Dip' beam or Low beam - to low beam relay control (recommended) or low beam filament. This would be with the arm in the down position.
So with the arm in the up position I would check for continuity across brown/red ? blue/white. With the arm in the down position I would check for continuity across brown/red ? blue/red.
If I have continuity as above, my problem is likely elsewhere. If I don?t have continuity, disassemble clean and cross fingers.
If you do have the Moss number, I?d appreciate it if only for later reference. Thanks for the offer of your spare. I may take you up on it if I can?t get this one working. Now all I need is a 3/32 drift!
brandon
Thank you greatly. It is indeed the failsafe setup (sorry I left that info out). I was not aware of the brown & purple hot at all times thing. This could prove very useful in other areas.
The switch is definitely flaky, so I?ll test as you describe. However, can I assume by ?blue? you meant brown/red? Also, looking at the diagram would my slightly revised description be accurate?
? Brown/red - Hot with ignition switch on - supply to column dip switch
? Blue/White - 'Main' beam or High beam - to high beam relay control (recommended) or high beam filament. This would be with the arm in the up position.
? Blue/Red - 'Dip' beam or Low beam - to low beam relay control (recommended) or low beam filament. This would be with the arm in the down position.
So with the arm in the up position I would check for continuity across brown/red ? blue/white. With the arm in the down position I would check for continuity across brown/red ? blue/red.
If I have continuity as above, my problem is likely elsewhere. If I don?t have continuity, disassemble clean and cross fingers.
If you do have the Moss number, I?d appreciate it if only for later reference. Thanks for the offer of your spare. I may take you up on it if I can?t get this one working. Now all I need is a 3/32 drift!
brandon
- brandon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Post by: mr.vman » Wed May 04, 2011 7:54 pm
Brandon,
Try bypassing the switch and using a "jumper wire", go direct to the headlamp wires (using the headlamp feed source for power), but down the harness. It could be a thermal breaker feeding power to the switch. The circuit could also have some type of high resistance in the harness, or? If the circuit works with no switch, you might have found the problem (switch). If the car has the thermal breaker switch, bypass that switch also, process of elimination. There are relays and switches in that circuit that also cause problems (short to ground, high resistance). Hope this helps. Steve V. +2 going together in Arizona.
Try bypassing the switch and using a "jumper wire", go direct to the headlamp wires (using the headlamp feed source for power), but down the harness. It could be a thermal breaker feeding power to the switch. The circuit could also have some type of high resistance in the harness, or? If the circuit works with no switch, you might have found the problem (switch). If the car has the thermal breaker switch, bypass that switch also, process of elimination. There are relays and switches in that circuit that also cause problems (short to ground, high resistance). Hope this helps. Steve V. +2 going together in Arizona.
- mr.vman
- Second Gear
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Post by: stugilmour » Wed May 04, 2011 10:41 pm
Thanks Steve for explaining much clearer what I meant regarding the rest of the circuit. It is quite possible you have a duff relay or connection causing issues, although you mentioned rattling the column switch indicated the fault is with it. Don't rule out having two problems at once, or resistance in the column switch causing a thermal cut-out to trigger (although your car may not have these). Really best to test the circuit directly from your battery or from one of those mobile jumper boxes from Canadian Tire, but this is difficult with the wiring all installed. You are already cleaning up and testing the column switch completely separately, which is the best procedure.
Sorry for confusion on wire colours in your car Brandon. You are correct, Brown/Red is the column switch supply rather than Blue. I was not looking at your diagram when I wrote stuff up. Be a bit careful though, as my copy of the diagram for what I assume is your car shows this Brown/Red connected to Brown/White at a bullet. I don't know for sure, but expect this would be the bullet on the column where the column switch pigtail attach's to the loom located close to the column. If you are looking for your lighting supply at the ignition key, it appears it is Brown/White on terminal 1, rather than Brown/Red. The other Brown/White wire on terminal 1 feed the side lights and the (thicker?) Brown/White is the Hot at all Times - Unfused supply to all of the ignition switch functions from the control box or alternator. The idea is the lighting control circuit does not go through the ignition switch, but is fed by the Brown/White supply wire at the ignition switch supply terminal 1.
Your remarks on the position of the column switch lever are spot on as well, assuming the column switch is mounted in the stock location on the left side of the column. I moved mine to the other side to agree with modern practice; I kept flashing guys when I wanted to make a right turn out of habit! If the column switch is moved to the right side of the column, it is easy to simply reverse the Blue/White and Blue/Red wires at the column bullet connector to get it all to work correctly (up for high, down for low).
Other remark looking at your diagram. As your Brown/Red comes directly from the ignition switch supply terminal 1, it is hot at all times - Unfused. Protection may be provided by the thermal cut-out, but I don't see one of them on what I assume is your diagram. In any case, many folks have removed these and installed standard fuses for the lighting circuit. I would not worry too much about possible circuit improvements like this until we get yours working as designed, but throw this out to you as something to consider later.
Look carefully at the relays on your diagram. I am referencing Elan +2S Generator (Federal) in my remarks, and assuming you have this diagram and this is what your car follows. You will note there are two relays, one for main and one for dip. The wires from the column switch attach to W1, which stands for "Winding 1", and is the control circuit of the relay. W2, or "Winding 2", goes to ground through the headlight pod micro switch. This arrangement prevents the relay control circuit from activating if the pods are in the down position. Don't get confused with the micro-switches, as there are two of them. The other micro-switch works to control the side lights, and is not part of this problem. At any rate, a dodgy connection of the headlight micro-switch or relay(s) can cause flickering as well. Note this set-up prevents the high amp draw of the headlight filaments from going thru the column switch.
The main relay power for the headlights is supplied directly from the control box/alternator with a different Brown/White, and then goes to the headlamp filaments thru the 'rear fuse box' with one 35! amp fuse per side. Note you have fuse protection for the headlamps themselves, but the relay control circuit is Unfused. Point this out as dodgy fuse holders can cause problems.
Questions for you Brandon so I understand better and make sure I have the correct diagram.
Cheers!
Sorry for confusion on wire colours in your car Brandon. You are correct, Brown/Red is the column switch supply rather than Blue. I was not looking at your diagram when I wrote stuff up. Be a bit careful though, as my copy of the diagram for what I assume is your car shows this Brown/Red connected to Brown/White at a bullet. I don't know for sure, but expect this would be the bullet on the column where the column switch pigtail attach's to the loom located close to the column. If you are looking for your lighting supply at the ignition key, it appears it is Brown/White on terminal 1, rather than Brown/Red. The other Brown/White wire on terminal 1 feed the side lights and the (thicker?) Brown/White is the Hot at all Times - Unfused supply to all of the ignition switch functions from the control box or alternator. The idea is the lighting control circuit does not go through the ignition switch, but is fed by the Brown/White supply wire at the ignition switch supply terminal 1.
Your remarks on the position of the column switch lever are spot on as well, assuming the column switch is mounted in the stock location on the left side of the column. I moved mine to the other side to agree with modern practice; I kept flashing guys when I wanted to make a right turn out of habit! If the column switch is moved to the right side of the column, it is easy to simply reverse the Blue/White and Blue/Red wires at the column bullet connector to get it all to work correctly (up for high, down for low).
Other remark looking at your diagram. As your Brown/Red comes directly from the ignition switch supply terminal 1, it is hot at all times - Unfused. Protection may be provided by the thermal cut-out, but I don't see one of them on what I assume is your diagram. In any case, many folks have removed these and installed standard fuses for the lighting circuit. I would not worry too much about possible circuit improvements like this until we get yours working as designed, but throw this out to you as something to consider later.
Look carefully at the relays on your diagram. I am referencing Elan +2S Generator (Federal) in my remarks, and assuming you have this diagram and this is what your car follows. You will note there are two relays, one for main and one for dip. The wires from the column switch attach to W1, which stands for "Winding 1", and is the control circuit of the relay. W2, or "Winding 2", goes to ground through the headlight pod micro switch. This arrangement prevents the relay control circuit from activating if the pods are in the down position. Don't get confused with the micro-switches, as there are two of them. The other micro-switch works to control the side lights, and is not part of this problem. At any rate, a dodgy connection of the headlight micro-switch or relay(s) can cause flickering as well. Note this set-up prevents the high amp draw of the headlight filaments from going thru the column switch.
The main relay power for the headlights is supplied directly from the control box/alternator with a different Brown/White, and then goes to the headlamp filaments thru the 'rear fuse box' with one 35! amp fuse per side. Note you have fuse protection for the headlamps themselves, but the relay control circuit is Unfused. Point this out as dodgy fuse holders can cause problems.
Questions for you Brandon so I understand better and make sure I have the correct diagram.
- Are your micro-switches physically located at the headlight pods and turned on and off by the pod movement? Or alternatively, the micro-switches may be located in the dash vacuum switch housing; this is how my earlier Federal car is set-up. I believe from your description you have the micro-switch at the pod set-up.
- Do you have three fuse boxes?
- Do you have flat rocker switches?
- Does your side light switch act as a separate intermittent rocker (push for on, push for off deal), or is it integral with a headlight switch?
- Do you have alternator or generator? Is it original or after-market, and if alternator does it have a separate control box (regulator) or an enclosed regulator in the alternator?
Cheers!
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
-
stugilmour - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Post by: brandon » Thu May 05, 2011 8:01 pm
RATS! I tested the dip swich last night and the meter says all is well. I didn?t use aligator clips though, so it?s possible the intermittent problem just wasn?t showing up at the time. However, I?m beginning to suspect you?re right regarding the 2nd and/or downstream issue. Unfortunately it?s going to be the weekend before I can start the diagnosis.
Steve,
I?ll be moving forward with your suggestions. What do you mean by ?high resistance? though? Would that be a split in the wire, or an issue with one of the relays? I don?t see any thermal brakers in the wiring diagram, but I suppose that doesn?t mean there isn?t one there.
Stu,
As mentioned above, I checked the resistance in the dip switch and it seemed to be fine. Zeroed out the meter at 20k ohms (I think this is the correct setting).
You are correct that the Brown/Red connects to Brown/White at a bullet. At least that?s what I remember while disconnecting the switch. So the Brown/White at terminal 1 on the ignition switch (brown/white everywhere I suppose) is always hot, and so I should be able to jumper from there directly to the main or dip beam relay (W1 and/or W2).
I was unaware that the dip switch is normally on the left side of the column, as mine is on the right as well. I don?t think it was connected with the wires switched at the bullet, so I?ll likely make that modification when I put it back together. For the Brown/Red, I agree that there does not seem to be a thermal cut-out in the diagram.
The Elan +2S Generator (Federal) is the diagram I?m refencing as well, and so far seems accurate with the exception of the dip switch itself. If I haven?t mentioned it before, I have the failsafe single vacuum pod system. As for your questions:
? I?m not entirely certain where the micro-switches are located, so I?ll have to go hunting. I suspect it may be in the dash vacuum switch though as it looks like there are wires to/from this switch. This would be item 38 in the parts manual (Diagram BN which shows the vacuum system for the headlight pods). My vacuum lines to this pull switch definitely have the 2 elbows (item 56) for the vacuum hose, so I?d assume I also have item 39 as my micro switch.
? I need to check the fuse boxes to make sure, but I?m fairly certain there?s 3 based on the PO?s advertisement for my car (which was quite extensive and mentioned the 3 fuse boxes, and 4 relays specifically).
? Flat rocker switches yes, not the earlier toggles.
? There is a separate rocker switch for the side lights right beside the pull switch.
? I still have a generator (which was rebuilt by the PO), so I would assume I still have the voltage control box.
The PO mentioned the relays ?were changed to the modern type?, although I?m not entirely certain what he means.
Thanks again for your help. I?ll be crawling through the car this Saturday I hope and will post back the results. I remember seeing a parts cross list (or at least mention of it) on this board a while back. Does this animal exist? It would be grat to know where the microswitches and relays come from if I find they?re the culprits.
brandon
Steve,
I?ll be moving forward with your suggestions. What do you mean by ?high resistance? though? Would that be a split in the wire, or an issue with one of the relays? I don?t see any thermal brakers in the wiring diagram, but I suppose that doesn?t mean there isn?t one there.
Stu,
As mentioned above, I checked the resistance in the dip switch and it seemed to be fine. Zeroed out the meter at 20k ohms (I think this is the correct setting).
You are correct that the Brown/Red connects to Brown/White at a bullet. At least that?s what I remember while disconnecting the switch. So the Brown/White at terminal 1 on the ignition switch (brown/white everywhere I suppose) is always hot, and so I should be able to jumper from there directly to the main or dip beam relay (W1 and/or W2).
I was unaware that the dip switch is normally on the left side of the column, as mine is on the right as well. I don?t think it was connected with the wires switched at the bullet, so I?ll likely make that modification when I put it back together. For the Brown/Red, I agree that there does not seem to be a thermal cut-out in the diagram.
The Elan +2S Generator (Federal) is the diagram I?m refencing as well, and so far seems accurate with the exception of the dip switch itself. If I haven?t mentioned it before, I have the failsafe single vacuum pod system. As for your questions:
? I?m not entirely certain where the micro-switches are located, so I?ll have to go hunting. I suspect it may be in the dash vacuum switch though as it looks like there are wires to/from this switch. This would be item 38 in the parts manual (Diagram BN which shows the vacuum system for the headlight pods). My vacuum lines to this pull switch definitely have the 2 elbows (item 56) for the vacuum hose, so I?d assume I also have item 39 as my micro switch.
? I need to check the fuse boxes to make sure, but I?m fairly certain there?s 3 based on the PO?s advertisement for my car (which was quite extensive and mentioned the 3 fuse boxes, and 4 relays specifically).
? Flat rocker switches yes, not the earlier toggles.
? There is a separate rocker switch for the side lights right beside the pull switch.
? I still have a generator (which was rebuilt by the PO), so I would assume I still have the voltage control box.
The PO mentioned the relays ?were changed to the modern type?, although I?m not entirely certain what he means.
Thanks again for your help. I?ll be crawling through the car this Saturday I hope and will post back the results. I remember seeing a parts cross list (or at least mention of it) on this board a while back. Does this animal exist? It would be grat to know where the microswitches and relays come from if I find they?re the culprits.
brandon
- brandon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Post by: stugilmour » Thu May 05, 2011 9:35 pm
Excellent Brandon. I would move on from suspecting the column switch now with no measured resistance in either position.
I am assuming the part numbers you quote for drawing BN follow the number system on Ray's on-line parts manual at rdent.com? Reason I confirm is because my hard copy of the Parts book has a different drawing that is way less clear. I have temporarily posted Ray's drawing below only for quick reference. I will remove it as soon as you confirm this is the one you are using, as we don't like to leave potentially copyrighted stuff up.
Referencing the drawing below, you can see the remote micro-switch setup in the upper drawing and the "Federal" set-up in the lower drawing. You should be able to clearly see the two separate microswitches behind the dash with the side cover removed. I have this federal set-up in my car, and am very familiar with it. I can't immediately be sure for your car, but if the wiring is the same as mine it is somewhat different than the electrical schematic you are referencing, and is only covered poorly as an addendum panel in my Federal schematic, so you could get very confused on this one. I will have to review my notes as I may have made some changes to mine during my re-wire, and don't want to confuse you completely.
My headlights were not working correctly, and the problem was the headlight micro-switch that is attached to the vacuum switch, so this would seem to be the likely candidate. However, before diving in to the dash headlight switch / micro-switch assembly, I would recommend function testing the relays, wiring, and headlight filaments first because it is reasonably easy to do, and the micro-switches take a bit of effort.
When you mention ?modern relays?, I am guessing they are what are commonly called Bosch type, but they are available from a number of manufacturers. They use a completely different terminal numbering convention than the Lucas type, although they work electrically the same. To ID them on your car, they are a cubic shaped affair with four or five male spades, and terminal numbers like 30, 85, 86, 87, & 87a. The lighting circuits (as per the diagram) only require four blade type, commonly called single make and break, although I used a five blade double make and break in my re-wire. Please check if this is what you have and I can reference the correct terminal numbers for you to avoid confusion with the Lucas type.
As far as sourcing replacement relays, the Bosch style four blade single make and break are a very common parts store item and use a standard terminal block configuration; the five blade types are reasonably standard as well but less commonly available. For an excellent overview of relay types (and reliable suppliers of British colour wires, relays, etc.):
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/V ... relays.php
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/113
http://www.britishwiring.com/
The way I would recommend testing all of the wiring ?down stream? of the column switch is to first make sure you have 12v at the relay power terminal (Bosch terminal 30 or Lucas terminal C2), and then apply a known 12 v source alternately to the column switch Blue/White and Blue/Red. The headlights should alternate between high and low beam and the relay?s click as they activate. Use an alligator clip lead to reliably make these connections. Bang gently on the relays, control box on the fire wall, fuse box, light switch, etc. to see if anything is behaving intermittently and repair as required. You may have to ground the relay at what appears in the diagram to be a Purple / Blue wire connection to get it to work; this would indicate the microswitch is not closing electrically to allow the relay to work. I can provide more detail on relay terminal numbers, etc. if you need it.
For the Micro-Switches (if this turns out to be the fault)
The bad news is you have to at least partially remove the dash to get access to the micro-switches. The good news is I know exactly the substitute part number for the switches, and you can get them Internet ordered from Allied Electronics in the 'States. If you in fact need one, order two and replace both at the same time and keep the old one as a spare; I think the shipping was more than the switches! The dimensions and mounting hole positions on the switches are critical for them to fit, as you are in effect constructing a light switch on to the vacuum switch.
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/produc ... KU=8040062
Allied Electronics
SAIA ? Burgess - Switch, Miniature Snap Action
10 Amp - 125/250 Volt
Manufacturer?s P/N: XGG2-88-21
Allied Stock Number 804-0062
Dimensions: 1.10? x 0.41? x 0.63?
I can provide more detail on the actual circuit, micro-switch repair, etc. if needed once you confirm no fault with the relays and the lights are working from independent power source but not from the dash light switch.
Last quick question (very important if you have to dive into the microswitches). Is the side light rocker switch spring loaded such that it centres itself at rest?
Cheers! Interesting problem.
Stu
PS Golden Gate Lotus Club site has some cross-over parts info on their site under tech and click on your model.
PPS Looking over my various wiring diagrams today, I only see reference to the thermal cut-out for the S130 and S130 Federal. These models appear to only have one fuse box with 4 fuses, but I could be wrong. I think what Steve is getting at is any extra resistance at any of the bullet connectors, within the switches, relays, etc. could cause extra draw on the circuit and trigger the thermal cut-out, which apparently presents itself as an intermittent fault that resets itself. A quick scan of the diagrams indicate one thermal cut-out will effect the headlamps and a second one will effect the panel lamps & side lights. Thankfully I have no direct experience with this item.
I am assuming the part numbers you quote for drawing BN follow the number system on Ray's on-line parts manual at rdent.com? Reason I confirm is because my hard copy of the Parts book has a different drawing that is way less clear. I have temporarily posted Ray's drawing below only for quick reference. I will remove it as soon as you confirm this is the one you are using, as we don't like to leave potentially copyrighted stuff up.
Referencing the drawing below, you can see the remote micro-switch setup in the upper drawing and the "Federal" set-up in the lower drawing. You should be able to clearly see the two separate microswitches behind the dash with the side cover removed. I have this federal set-up in my car, and am very familiar with it. I can't immediately be sure for your car, but if the wiring is the same as mine it is somewhat different than the electrical schematic you are referencing, and is only covered poorly as an addendum panel in my Federal schematic, so you could get very confused on this one. I will have to review my notes as I may have made some changes to mine during my re-wire, and don't want to confuse you completely.
My headlights were not working correctly, and the problem was the headlight micro-switch that is attached to the vacuum switch, so this would seem to be the likely candidate. However, before diving in to the dash headlight switch / micro-switch assembly, I would recommend function testing the relays, wiring, and headlight filaments first because it is reasonably easy to do, and the micro-switches take a bit of effort.
When you mention ?modern relays?, I am guessing they are what are commonly called Bosch type, but they are available from a number of manufacturers. They use a completely different terminal numbering convention than the Lucas type, although they work electrically the same. To ID them on your car, they are a cubic shaped affair with four or five male spades, and terminal numbers like 30, 85, 86, 87, & 87a. The lighting circuits (as per the diagram) only require four blade type, commonly called single make and break, although I used a five blade double make and break in my re-wire. Please check if this is what you have and I can reference the correct terminal numbers for you to avoid confusion with the Lucas type.
As far as sourcing replacement relays, the Bosch style four blade single make and break are a very common parts store item and use a standard terminal block configuration; the five blade types are reasonably standard as well but less commonly available. For an excellent overview of relay types (and reliable suppliers of British colour wires, relays, etc.):
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/V ... relays.php
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/113
http://www.britishwiring.com/
The way I would recommend testing all of the wiring ?down stream? of the column switch is to first make sure you have 12v at the relay power terminal (Bosch terminal 30 or Lucas terminal C2), and then apply a known 12 v source alternately to the column switch Blue/White and Blue/Red. The headlights should alternate between high and low beam and the relay?s click as they activate. Use an alligator clip lead to reliably make these connections. Bang gently on the relays, control box on the fire wall, fuse box, light switch, etc. to see if anything is behaving intermittently and repair as required. You may have to ground the relay at what appears in the diagram to be a Purple / Blue wire connection to get it to work; this would indicate the microswitch is not closing electrically to allow the relay to work. I can provide more detail on relay terminal numbers, etc. if you need it.
For the Micro-Switches (if this turns out to be the fault)
The bad news is you have to at least partially remove the dash to get access to the micro-switches. The good news is I know exactly the substitute part number for the switches, and you can get them Internet ordered from Allied Electronics in the 'States. If you in fact need one, order two and replace both at the same time and keep the old one as a spare; I think the shipping was more than the switches! The dimensions and mounting hole positions on the switches are critical for them to fit, as you are in effect constructing a light switch on to the vacuum switch.
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/produc ... KU=8040062
Allied Electronics
SAIA ? Burgess - Switch, Miniature Snap Action
10 Amp - 125/250 Volt
Manufacturer?s P/N: XGG2-88-21
Allied Stock Number 804-0062
Dimensions: 1.10? x 0.41? x 0.63?
I can provide more detail on the actual circuit, micro-switch repair, etc. if needed once you confirm no fault with the relays and the lights are working from independent power source but not from the dash light switch.
Last quick question (very important if you have to dive into the microswitches). Is the side light rocker switch spring loaded such that it centres itself at rest?
Cheers! Interesting problem.
Stu
PS Golden Gate Lotus Club site has some cross-over parts info on their site under tech and click on your model.
PPS Looking over my various wiring diagrams today, I only see reference to the thermal cut-out for the S130 and S130 Federal. These models appear to only have one fuse box with 4 fuses, but I could be wrong. I think what Steve is getting at is any extra resistance at any of the bullet connectors, within the switches, relays, etc. could cause extra draw on the circuit and trigger the thermal cut-out, which apparently presents itself as an intermittent fault that resets itself. A quick scan of the diagrams indicate one thermal cut-out will effect the headlamps and a second one will effect the panel lamps & side lights. Thankfully I have no direct experience with this item.
Last edited by stugilmour on Fri May 06, 2011 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
-
stugilmour - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Post by: brandon » Fri May 06, 2011 7:23 pm
Stu,
I won't have much of a chance to post back today. However you can remove Ray's graphic as it is definitely the one I'm referring to. I'll actually be picking up some bits from him in Buffalo tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help.
I won't have much of a chance to post back today. However you can remove Ray's graphic as it is definitely the one I'm referring to. I'll actually be picking up some bits from him in Buffalo tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help.
- brandon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Post by: mr.vman » Fri May 06, 2011 11:56 pm
Brandon, Reads like Stu is doing is moving you in the correct direction. Check your grounds for resistance. Should be only one ground in the engine compartment. Through the years, all kinds of wire could have been added. Better yet do voltage drops, work the circuit hot. Use a fused "jumper" to protect the circuit as you do voltage drops at various areas. Remove light bulbs, one at a time, see if that makes a difference (look in the sockets, dirt, rust, poor contacts or?) It is easier and quicker to do voltage drops. Check the grounds! Like Stu posts, check connectors. I hope this helps. Stu, are you going to LOG? Steve V.
- mr.vman
- Second Gear
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Post by: mr.vman » Sat May 07, 2011 1:29 am
Brandon, Should have done a better job of proof reading. Should read something like this; Reads like Stu is, doing a good job of setting you the correct direction. Once again sorry, too quick to send things off. Steve V.
- mr.vman
- Second Gear
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Post by: stugilmour » Sat May 07, 2011 1:37 am
Great advice for Brandon Steve.
Yes, have my room booked at the host hotel, so as good as for sure! For some reason I cannot get on the member's portion of the Lotus Ltd web site; have emailed etc. and they are trying to sort out. Think the issue may be my membership lapsed for a year but I think they gave me the same membership number back. If I understand correctly, can't book for the actual LOG & events events yet, or am I missing something important without full access to the site?
I read a great article on the site on what to expect; my first LOG so was very helpful for me, particularly "how to pack a Lotus" section. I am off work for a few days and just prepping the car for a major run to the west coast for a show and visit with family. Will also be making contact down on the coast with a potential traveling buddy for LOG; he used to own a car like mine "back in the day" so thought he would enjoy the invite. He may know too much about long distance travel in a Plus 2 to accept though.
Hope your re-build is going well.
Yes, have my room booked at the host hotel, so as good as for sure! For some reason I cannot get on the member's portion of the Lotus Ltd web site; have emailed etc. and they are trying to sort out. Think the issue may be my membership lapsed for a year but I think they gave me the same membership number back. If I understand correctly, can't book for the actual LOG & events events yet, or am I missing something important without full access to the site?
I read a great article on the site on what to expect; my first LOG so was very helpful for me, particularly "how to pack a Lotus" section. I am off work for a few days and just prepping the car for a major run to the west coast for a show and visit with family. Will also be making contact down on the coast with a potential traveling buddy for LOG; he used to own a car like mine "back in the day" so thought he would enjoy the invite. He may know too much about long distance travel in a Plus 2 to accept though.
Hope your re-build is going well.
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
-
stugilmour - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Post by: brandon » Sun May 08, 2011 1:48 am
Steve,
Thanks again for the suggestions. One of the first things I did after I brought the car home was to check and clean all the ground points. I've seen so many problems in the past due to bad grounds it seemed a reasonable course of action. As it turned out, the PO hadn't put a braided ground strap across either of the motor mounts, so I took the opportunity. The car did in fact run slightly better afterwards. Most of the car is quite clean though. The PO removed and cleaned virtually everything possible with the body still on.
At any rate, after picking up my box of bits from the UPS store in Buffalo I managed to dig into things a bit more as described above. The short answer is I'm fairly confident the problem is in the headlamp microswitch circuit. Whether it's actually the microswitch or not, I have not yet determined. Looking at the diagram, the microswitch is grounded, and I did not have the time to check that ground unfortunately. SO far I have tested the following:
- Ignition switch terminal 1 hot all the time.
- With dip switch reconnected, confirmed brown/red at dip switch hot all the time.
- Checked main and dip after the dip switch (at the bullet) and seems to be operating well (I did clean the dip switch). So with switch "up" blue/brown hot, with switch "down" blue/red hot. I did this with blue/brown & blue/red not yet inserted into the bullet.
- Checked blue/red & blue/white at the dip and main beams respectively. Both were hot at the same time. I find this a little confusing as it didn't matter which position the dip switch was in, terminal W1 on both relays were always hot. Could this be "feedback" through the relays somehow???
- It's worth pointing out that the headlights did not come on this entire time, and the relays would not click as I operated the dip switch.
- I grounded out terminals W2 on both main and dip beam relays and voila... lights. Further, both main and dip beams worked. Further, further, checking for voltage at W1 on both relays indicated that they were no longer both hot at the same time (good I think).
So this is as far as I managed to get today, so I suppose my question is; Am I correct in assuming that if everything works fine with the W2s grounded out that the issue is either the microswitch or it's ground?
Stu,
I'm almost certain the microswitch is behind the dash as you describe. I would not say that I can "clearly" see them as you describe, as they are on the other side of the vacuum pull switch. However I do see wires going to that area and I can't think what else they would be for.
I did not think to check what brand the relay's were, but they looked like 5 spades with 4 around the perimiter, and one in the center. Oddly on one of the relays it looked as though the center post was cut flush at the plastic surface, effectively making it a 4 spade. I'll try to confirm terminal numbers tomorrow.
I forgot to check whether the side light rocker is as you describe, but will do so tomorrow
brandon
Thanks again for the suggestions. One of the first things I did after I brought the car home was to check and clean all the ground points. I've seen so many problems in the past due to bad grounds it seemed a reasonable course of action. As it turned out, the PO hadn't put a braided ground strap across either of the motor mounts, so I took the opportunity. The car did in fact run slightly better afterwards. Most of the car is quite clean though. The PO removed and cleaned virtually everything possible with the body still on.
At any rate, after picking up my box of bits from the UPS store in Buffalo I managed to dig into things a bit more as described above. The short answer is I'm fairly confident the problem is in the headlamp microswitch circuit. Whether it's actually the microswitch or not, I have not yet determined. Looking at the diagram, the microswitch is grounded, and I did not have the time to check that ground unfortunately. SO far I have tested the following:
- Ignition switch terminal 1 hot all the time.
- With dip switch reconnected, confirmed brown/red at dip switch hot all the time.
- Checked main and dip after the dip switch (at the bullet) and seems to be operating well (I did clean the dip switch). So with switch "up" blue/brown hot, with switch "down" blue/red hot. I did this with blue/brown & blue/red not yet inserted into the bullet.
- Checked blue/red & blue/white at the dip and main beams respectively. Both were hot at the same time. I find this a little confusing as it didn't matter which position the dip switch was in, terminal W1 on both relays were always hot. Could this be "feedback" through the relays somehow???
- It's worth pointing out that the headlights did not come on this entire time, and the relays would not click as I operated the dip switch.
- I grounded out terminals W2 on both main and dip beam relays and voila... lights. Further, both main and dip beams worked. Further, further, checking for voltage at W1 on both relays indicated that they were no longer both hot at the same time (good I think).
So this is as far as I managed to get today, so I suppose my question is; Am I correct in assuming that if everything works fine with the W2s grounded out that the issue is either the microswitch or it's ground?
Stu,
I'm almost certain the microswitch is behind the dash as you describe. I would not say that I can "clearly" see them as you describe, as they are on the other side of the vacuum pull switch. However I do see wires going to that area and I can't think what else they would be for.
I did not think to check what brand the relay's were, but they looked like 5 spades with 4 around the perimiter, and one in the center. Oddly on one of the relays it looked as though the center post was cut flush at the plastic surface, effectively making it a 4 spade. I'll try to confirm terminal numbers tomorrow.
I forgot to check whether the side light rocker is as you describe, but will do so tomorrow
brandon
- brandon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Post by: stugilmour » Sun May 08, 2011 4:35 pm
Looks like excellent progress Brandon. A few points/next steps:
- Guessing when you mention wire colour Blue/Brown at the column switch bullet above you mean Blue/White? The white trace may look light brown from 40 years of fading.
- If the light filaments are working correctly with the column switch re-installed and the relay control circuit grounded to bypass the dash light switch, I think you can safely assume the only problem you have is with the dash light switch or it's connections. Still a bit confused on the exact relay types you have, but if they work OK probably all good.
- The description of one of your relays with five terminals sounds like a Bosch five blade type. The centre terminal is the secondary terminal for the main circuit, probably labeled 87a or 87b, depending on the relay type. Check the relay terminal block to see if the centre terminal is even used electrically. Typically the five blade type can be used in place of a four blade relay and the centre terminal simply not used. If it is used it is probably important to understand what it is doing as this varies from your schematic.
- A four blade relay with what appears to be a cut off terminal is normal; seen some like that before.
- The dash light switch connections that could be a fault include connection at the relay, connections at the microswitch, or the connection at the ground terminal that is used by the circuit. As best you can, check these prior to removing the dash light switch.
- Due to difficulty of accessing the dash switch microswitches and their connections, you are probably pretty much at the stage where the dash will have to be partially removed and the switch assembly removed to repair it. Before removing the dash, I recommend function testing all of the circuits to see if you have any other issues that require attention while the dash is out. This includes instruments, panel lights, interior lights, wipers, etc. Even the horn and reverse lights should be checked; although not seemingly in the dash loom it would be very easy to make an incorrect connection when re-installing the dash so great if you know exactly what is working before disturbing things.
- On my car the dash switch can be removed without taking the dash completely out of the car, but it is tight. As you have observed, it is very difficult to see the wire connections to the switch. It will therefore be important to understand the side light circuit in your car and whether it is working correctly prior to removing the switch assembly, as this circuit will be disturbed. You will also want to carefully note the terminals used for all of the wires; each microswitch has three terminals, but only two are used on each switch. You will have to do this part by feel if the dash is not completely removed.
- Dash switch assembly is held in place with a retaining nut on the front of the switch. First remove knob by pressing in on the retaining clip located in a hole in the bottom of the knob and pulling it off. The retaining nut is best loosened with a fabricated tool that will extend over the knob stem and engage the two slots on the nut at the same time. I made a simple tool from a large fender washer that worked well. Loosening the nut by pounding on a screwdriver is tempting but not advised.
- When you see the switch assembly out of the car, it is pretty apparent how it works, comes apart, etc. to replace the switches. As it is an assembled piece, the switches can easily get out of alignment with the knob stem and a wedge shaped piece that hits the switch buttons, giving an intermittent fault like you describe. Even with a new switch I found it a bit fussy to get it to work correctly.
- I didn't take my switch apart to service the vacuum valve as I installed an electric motor for the pods. Just going from memory, but I think our switch type might be a bit more difficult to take apart than the one without the microswitches installed.
- Dash held in place with five screws and two side brackets. Top outside screws and bottom two screws covered by console have nuts; two top middle screws have captive nuts so no back-up required.
- If you decide to take the dash completely out of the car, a number of other items have to be removed, including heater controls, vent hoses, bonnet release, side brackets with door switches, choke cable.
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
-
stugilmour - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Post by: brandon » Mon May 09, 2011 1:13 am
Thanks Stu... we'll beat it yet! I'll freely admit electrical is not my strong suit, but I can be patient. It would be helpful if the wire colours always matched what is shown in the diagram, but at least they're consistent through the circuit (so far). The wiring looks to be original, but how purple/blue fades to white/pink I'll never know!
As for the relays, I've posed a few pictures. Again I can't find any manufacturer ID, but the relevant info seems to be there. As things seem to work, I'll assume they're connected correctly. If you confirm the correct terminals for me though I'd appreciate it for later reference (I think 86=W1, 85=W2, 87=C1, 30=C2).
As you can see the 4 blade just has the 5th blade removed, which you've confirmed as normal. Regarding your second point, you are correct on the blue/white... slip of the keyboard I'm afraid.
I can confirm that the side light rocker switch is the spring loaded affair as you mention (similar to the window rocker switches). I've read though your bullets a few times and think I know where I'm going next. The first thing will be to check the microswitch ground point. Any idea where that might be??? Unfortunately I may not get a chance to work on the car again until next Friday.
As for the relays, I've posed a few pictures. Again I can't find any manufacturer ID, but the relevant info seems to be there. As things seem to work, I'll assume they're connected correctly. If you confirm the correct terminals for me though I'd appreciate it for later reference (I think 86=W1, 85=W2, 87=C1, 30=C2).
- Relay ID
- 4 Blade Relay
- 5 Blade Relay
As you can see the 4 blade just has the 5th blade removed, which you've confirmed as normal. Regarding your second point, you are correct on the blue/white... slip of the keyboard I'm afraid.
I can confirm that the side light rocker switch is the spring loaded affair as you mention (similar to the window rocker switches). I've read though your bullets a few times and think I know where I'm going next. The first thing will be to check the microswitch ground point. Any idea where that might be??? Unfortunately I may not get a chance to work on the car again until next Friday.
- brandon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Post by: stugilmour » Mon May 09, 2011 5:44 am
Great Brandon.
I expect the switch will be grounded at the main dash ground located at the right dash bracket and body mounting bolt located by the cigarette lighter. Check this main ground point back to your -ve battery terminal using the ohm meter. My guess is you would have a bunch of other electrical issues if this ground is truly flakey though.
I am assuming the center terminal on the five blade relay is not connected to anything? It is a changeover relay, and the centre terminal 87a is hot when the relay is not triggered, and off when the relay is triggered. This centre terminal is not required in your setup.
Good luck with it.
I expect the switch will be grounded at the main dash ground located at the right dash bracket and body mounting bolt located by the cigarette lighter. Check this main ground point back to your -ve battery terminal using the ohm meter. My guess is you would have a bunch of other electrical issues if this ground is truly flakey though.
I am assuming the center terminal on the five blade relay is not connected to anything? It is a changeover relay, and the centre terminal 87a is hot when the relay is not triggered, and off when the relay is triggered. This centre terminal is not required in your setup.
Good luck with it.
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
-
stugilmour - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2063
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007
15 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Total Online:
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests
Site map
SitemapIndex
RSS Feed