Lotus Elan

Elan +2 5 speed problem

PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:13 pm

Thanks MBell - sorry not to know your name so far!
So, got you re: 4th gear,
I am familiar with the clutch sticking issue, had Elan’s for many winters now! That could be true, but as I cannot properly a gage any gear I cannot say. If it wee in gear with the clutch stuck the engine should turn when the car is rocked and or pushed,
I think I can find 1-4, and perhaps it’s in the synchro hubs, but not fully in gear as in any of these positions - based on the car rolling freely when the lever is in each of these positions - But in which the lever does seem to stay. I believe I can find the 5/R plane, but cannot be sure as the partial engagement felt in 1-4 does not occur.
Hope this is the info you wanted, and a million thanks for helping!!
James
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PostPost by: sprintsoft » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:21 pm

James, can you show us a pic of the gear lever taken from the side when it’s engaged as far in gear as it will go? us with 5 speed should be able to see if the angle Looks normal...
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PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:28 pm

Thanks Sprintsoft, I will do so in the morning!
Cheers
James
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:45 pm

one quick thing that you may still try regarding synchros alignment with a clutch possibly stuck is to rotate the engine via the crankshaft bolt (I understand that the engine does not start at this point, and there is no engagement on any lever position so the rear wheels remain free wheeling).
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PostPost by: mbell » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:16 pm

The throw on the standard gearstick is 1.25-1.5" between neutral and engaged in a gear.

I find the engagement is quite positive on the box, so it is noticeable if it goes into gear or not. I had a fault on my box that prevent engaging 4th which could be felt by just by the lack of engagement. With gearstick held in place for 4th it would prevent rocking of the vehicle, but that was just the sychro....

When I was getting my car going again I worried about the gearbox after I'd got the engine going and clutch freed up as couldn't really diagnose the gearbox for certain until then.

I'd suggest do the same and come back to this once you have engine running. There very little you can do to the box with it in place. So going to need to remove it and the engine if it has significant issues. Given you have to pull the engine you probably want to run that and see if it has any issues (e.g. oil leaks) that can be more easily addressed while out of the car first anyway.
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:30 pm

This is the shift on my 5 speed if it is any good to you. Give you an idea of the length of the throw etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsER5Refu0o
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PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:25 pm

Thanks all, here is an update. Firstly thanks to JonB for his generous help today - I think many of you know Jon from his exploits with his purple Plus 2.
Short version is that the reason that rolling the car does not rotate the engine was that the clutch was jammed in the disengaged position, so even when in gear, the clutch was not engaged, so the car just rolled. This is now fixed, and 1-4 engage; the gear lever throw is very short indeed, and Jon tells me the lever incorporates a mod which in effect it makes it a short shift; Jon will explain more, this is my first Lotus 5 speed.
Nonetheless we have so far failed to reach reverse or 5th, and again Jon may shed some more light on how it feels compared to usual. I guess that once the engine runs and the box warms up this may free up; the box was said to be rebuilt over 10 years ago but never yet used. Welcome your thoughts! and again thanks for all the help, I feel as though I am getting there!!
James
Last edited by jkatthehelm on Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: JonB » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:50 pm

So, here's what I found on examining James' gearshift.

It has a steel collet instead of the normal "plastic threaded base with bendy tabs". This is as far as I am aware quite unusual and I've not seen a picture of anything similar. That said, the car is a prototype S130/5 according to the documents (and confirmed by the Lotus archivist), which may explain the unusual shift. Anyway, the effect of this collet is to move the pivot point of the stick further away from the shift mechanism it engages with. This reduces mechanical advantage but gives you a "quick shift" action (where you don't have to move the top of the stick so far to change gear). The ball and bellows are in great condition and the shift itself feels very tight. However, it will not engage 5th or reverse at the moment.

Most of our time was spent on unsticking the clutch slave cylinder, which was jammed in the "clutch engaged" position, as if you had the pedal all the way down all the time. The hope was that we could move the gearbox input shaft once this was fixed, and achieve 5th or reverse. The slave cylinder had been fitted incorrectly and the plunger had popped out of the end of it. No damage that I could see, and we were able to remove it and push the plunger home, then refit the actuating rod properly. Quick bleed and the clutch is working again.

Engaging 1-4th and rocking the car back and forth to turn the input shaft did not help with 5th / reverse.

I've suggested that James might like to try a normal S130/5 gearstick to see if it works better. I don't know if this would be compatible but it's the next thing to try, after we resurrect the engine. If anyone has one he can borrow I am sure he will be happy to get his mitts on it. Shame I sold my spare gearstick months ago...

Of now to straighten my cricked neck! :lol:
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PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:51 pm

thanks Jon, good luck with that massage!!
J :D
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PostPost by: mbell » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:45 pm

It sounds like a 5th/rev selector issue which likely means pulling the box.

Before that I'd:
- Try a standard stick or selecting 5th/rev via manually moving the selector
- Confirm the 5th detent and spring are present under the dome nut on bottom of case
- Maybe back out the reverse light switch on off chance it interfering with the mechanism
'73 +2 130/5 RHD, now on the road and very slowly rolling though a "restoration"
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PostPost by: sprintsoft » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:12 pm

thanks to Jon for getting stuck in here, there's no substitute for hands on experience!

James you never mentioned you have a prototype S130/5, this surely is a very rare car??

Imagine, Colin probably borrowed your car and drove it on its shakedown runs!
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PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:16 am

Thanks all!
If the box needs to come out then at least it is not an urgency now that I can theoretically move it under its own steam, will check for interference as suggested. Yes, the car is rare I guess, and a bit of a hybrid as a result; it's verified by the Lotus Archivist and the original V5, so all good! Once it's nearer completion I'll post some pics.
J
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PostPost by: gjz30075 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:26 am

jkatthehelm wrote: Once it's nearer completion I'll post some pics.
J


Especially of the prototype stick..
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PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:30 am

I’ll photograph the stick today.
I have engaged reverse, the stick makes it hard! Hope to start the engine today which should help!
More later
Cheers
J
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PostPost by: jkatthehelm » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:37 pm

vincereynard wrote:This is the shift on my 5 speed if it is any good to you. Give you an idea of the length of the throw etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsER5Refu0o

Thanks! Jon came by today, tx for your help
J
66 Elan fhc, 69 Elan Plus 2, 98 Elise 2.0l Duratec
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