Lotus Elan

My Voigt 5-speed conversion

PostPost by: steve lyle » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:49 pm

alan.barker wrote:Hi Steve,
looks very nice. I imagine you have changed the Needle bearing for the Gearbox Spigot that is in the Crankshaft :wink: :wink:
When i fit an Engine to the Gearbox i attach the sandwich plate the Engine using thin thread through the holes with the Dowels (to stop it moving).
If the Gearbox is already in the Car i also select a gear to stop input shaft turning.
With the Gearbox already in the Car it also prevents the Bellhousing jam on the Engine Mounting Lugs on the Chassis.
Alan


Nice tips, Alan. Thanks.

Has a spigot bearing ever failed?
Steve Lyle
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PostPost by: alan.barker » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:11 pm

To remove the Spigot Bearing make a round Drift that will just slide into the Needle Bearing. Fill completly the old Bearing in the Crank with thick Grease.
Place the Drift just inside Bearing and hit smartly with Hammer. This will hydraulic the old Bearing out of the Crankshaft. You may have to fill with Grease several times to remove completly.
Have fun
Alan
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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:53 am

Voigt has delivered the 5 speed kit with a new clutch cover/pressure plate and friction/driven plate. There are no markings on either save a “431” on one of the diaphragm fingers.

Does anyone know the source and spec for these parts? I have asked Alan Voigt twice (email) but no answer yet.

I am trying to see if the supplied clutch is suitable for my uprated twincam (143 lb-ft, 181hp).
With my current 4-speed clutch setup, I already experienced some clutch slip for a fast redline 3-4 shift. This is with what I believe is a standard Elan clutch (checking with engine builder to verify if standard).

Basically, if I can’t get a clear answer from Voigt on the clutch spec then I am looking for a recommendation for an uprated pressure plate (Helix, AP, .. ?) paired with a T9 compatible driven plate (1” shaft , 23 spline, 8” OD).
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PostPost by: Foxie » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:13 pm

I have a T9 Voigts box.

I have a 215mm (8.5") clutch fitted.

The part no. for the driven plate 215mm 1.00" x 23 is AP Racing CP 5352 - 5, available from Burtonpower.

They are awaiting stock at present.

I have an AP heavy duty pressure plate, but I don't have the part no.

Looking at the Burton website it might be FP 273A, on special order.

:)
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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:45 pm

Foxie wrote:I have a T9 Voigts box.

I have a 215mm (8.5") clutch fitted.

The part no. for the driven plate 215mm 1.00" x 23 is AP Racing CP 5352 - 5, available from Burtonpower.

They are awaiting stock at present.

I have an AP heavy duty pressure plate, but I don't have the part no.

Looking at the Burton website it might be FP 273A, on special order.

:)


Thanks for the feedback.

1. The driven plate that you indicated (AP Racing CP 5352-5) is shown at 156.25 pounds and "Stock Overdue". The cross referenced Helix part (70-2619) is indicated at 102.08 pounds and available in 4-7 days from Burton. Any compelling reason for the difference in price? Both plates are 215mm(8.5") vs Voigt supplied 8".

2. Searching long and hard it appears that the AP Racing clutch cover (with thrust pad) should be CP2246-41 (-71 is discontinued). The cross-referenced Helix is part no 60-2846. Helix version is in stock at Burton (and elsewhere) at ~200 pounds. Couldn't find the AP version except on Ebay of the discontinued version (-71) - with exorbitant shipping from the UK to US. TTR also show a picture of the AP Racing -71 cover but not sure if that is what they are currently supplying.

It appears that the AP Racing setup was rated at 165 lb-ft. The Helix setup at 179 lb-ft. But this information is not readily found. The stock Elan clutch - green paint code (according to Bean catalog) is 120 lb-ft.

What I still don't know is what Voigt actually supplied to me as far as the clutch cover and driven plate. The cover looks like it might be a Helix but I'd like to get a confirmation from him. Still waiting.

Picture below (Old Borg & Beck on left, perhaps original or a replacement (not sure what is on the car now, still installed), on the right the Voigt clutch cover - origin and spec unknown).
IMG_5144.jpeg and
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PostPost by: Foxie » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:00 am

Happy to help out !

How did you get 181 BHP out of your engine ? :shock:
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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:04 am

Engine is a creation of master builder (and 3 time SCCA National Champion in an Elan) Dave Vegher. Stroked, high lift, short duration cams, new SAS Weber head, ... There are other posts that give details.,

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=45565&p=326499#p326499
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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:41 pm

Talked to Ken at Dave Bean and he thinks I should have a 170 lb-ft AP clutch cover. Knowing Dave Vegher's high performance engines, that is what Ken would have supplied to Dave when Dave built my engine a few years back.

Thus, I'm most likely going to use my existing pressure plate and just use a compatible heavy duty T-9 friction plate. Although I haven't heard from Alan Voigt I suspect his pressure plate and friction plate (8" not 8.5") are probably not well suited to my high performance engine. Maybe I'll hear back from Alan by the time I finally get into the gearbox swap - right now I'm being an armchair mechanic - and watching Steve's efforts.

Another plus, is that my existing clutch cover was balanced. Although, Dave says that it would not really be problematic putting a new cover on without balancing it. Since I am observing a 7K redline and not revving at 9K + where balancing would be more important.

Dave Vegher also echoed Alan Voigts recommendation of removing/installing the engine and gearbox separately. I only have ever done it with them joined. I'm going to try it this time.
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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:22 pm

Just to add some more clutch/Voigt info for the record:

From Helix Clutches:

The torque ratings are below. We can make the drive plate using either organic friction material (for road use) or cerametallic pads (for race and rally applications).

60-2846 organic 244Nm (179 Ibft) cerametallic 288Nm (212 Ibft)
60-3331 organic 218Nm (160 Ibft) cerametallic 258Nm (180 Ibft)



I should note that the 60-2846 is available from Burton's. The 60-3331 is supplied by TTR (used on FIA race cars) - used with either AP or Helix driven plate. There are other vendors as well.

From Alan Voigts:

1. Clutch cover is as you say to avoid height problems. Clutch plate is standard.
This we have supplied for many years.
2. About the chassis cut out you are correct.


So, from Alan I conclude that:

1. I should not use the Voigt supplied "standard" clutch plate as it will be more suitable for a "standard" Elan (e.g. Sprint - 113 lb-ft) vs the 143 lb-ft that I need to accommodate. Just need to verify the plate height used is within tolerance to work with the concentric slave cylinder. Otherwise need to shim it apparently. TBD

2. I can tailor the chassis cutout as indicated in my earlier post, removing less material where the speedometer drive would normally be. Of course, I will be dry fitting the gearbox to check this in situ.
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PostPost by: gjz30075 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:29 pm

Good info, thanks!
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PostPost by: steve lyle » Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:39 pm

Well, rats. I ran into 2 problems today. One clearly of my own making. One that appears to be a problem with the kit.

First, my problem. Today's objective was to test fit the transmission to the car. I offered it up with the clutch bleed line installed, but once it was under the car it was clear it was getting in the way. So I went to remove it - the good news is I got it off. The bad news is I twisted the line in doing so. Not a huge deal - I can get some break line and make a new one.

Then the (likely?) kit problem. The transmission cross member that comes with the kit is a rectangular sheet of steel with a curved flange along one of the long edges. The kit also has a spacer - so the assembly is cross member, spacer, trannny mount, tranny. There are slots at the four corners of the cross member that (almost) match the chassis mounting points. There are 4 other slots in 2 pairs. Two centered on the long edge with the flange, and spaced (almost) to match the spacer/tranny mount holes, and two on the opposite long edge that are too close together to match anything.

To get the mount fitted to the crossmember I had to widen the mount slots a bit, maybe 1/8" or so. No way would the bolts fit through the spacer without doing that. Once that was done, I had to widen the chassis mounting holes in the cross member a similar amount. The kit comes with large washers, maybe they expect you might have to do that. Once that was done I fit the cross member to the transmission the only way it would fit, which was with the mount edge toward the front of the car.

However, when fit that way, the transmission is too far forward.

OK, so I try turning the cross member around, and put the mount at the rear. When you do that, the front edge of the cross member fouls with the bottom of the transmission tail piece.

So it would seem that I need to remove some material in from middle of the front edge of the cross member, maybe 2" wide and 1/2" deep on that edge.

I'll send an inquiry to Alan - I guess it's possible I'm not assembling this thing correctly. If anybody can see an error I'm making, please let me know (other than the one I've already admitted to!).
Attachments
IMG_0269 (2).JPG and
Problem 2
IMG_0280.JPG and
Problem 1
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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:10 am

Doesn’t look like this is going to be plug and play, does it? I suppose to be expected.

I realized just now that my kit doesn’t have the transmission mount. Not there. Alan already told me he forgot the gearshift plug and is mailing it to me. Not sure what that plug is but apparently goes in the hole at the end of tail piece “spine”.

So I’ll send a request to Alan for the mount. Taking Alan about 4-5 days to respond to emails.

I also anticipate issues related to my extra large bore TTR exhaust. Possible fouling on the gearbox and potential rerouting. Also, not sure the bleed bracket that attaches via an exhaust manifold nut is going to work with the TTR manifold (not necessarily a big deal, since I can undoubtedly fashion something that will work).

Steve, I too am perplexed by the mounting. Interested to see what Alan says. (At least you received the mount!) Regarding replacing your bleed line, maybe a flex tubing would be less of a problem? There is a flex line already for the clutch master cylinder.
I really appreciate you “blazing the trail” on this.
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PostPost by: steve lyle » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:36 am

1owner69Elan wrote:Doesn’t look like this is going to be plug and play, does it? I suppose to be expected.

I realized just now that my kit doesn’t have the transmission mount. Not there.


My kit didn't have a mount, either. I reused my old one - it fits the new tranny in the same way it fit the old.The kit does have a 17mm bolt to fit the mount to the threads of the new tranny.

I agree that a flex line would be preferable, but I know how to make up a hard line, and I've never made a flex line.
Steve Lyle
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PostPost by: Foxie » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:23 pm

1owner69Elan wrote:
I also anticipate issues related to my extra large bore TTR exhaust. Possible fouling on the gearbox and potential rerouting. Also, not sure the bleed bracket that attaches via an exhaust manifold nut is going to work with the TTR manifold (not necessarily a big deal, since I can undoubtedly fashion something that will work).

Steve, I too am perplexed by the mounting. Interested to see what Alan says. (At least you received the mount!) Regarding replacing your bleed line, maybe a flex tubing would be less of a problem? There is a flex line already for the clutch master cylinder.
I really appreciate you “blazing the trail” on this.


I fitted Alan Voigts T9 gearbox to my Spyder chassised +2 in 2004. This was the first time Alan had supplied a T9 for this application. I had to cut clearances in the Spyder tunnel section. This was mainly to make room for the speedo angle drive. (I later fitted an electronic speedo, so there is no angle drive there now )

I also had grind off some protuberences on the gearbox casing.

I supplied Alan with drawings of the mods.

I routed the clutch line to a U-shaped bracket on the two No. 4 exhaust pipe studs.

I fitted a TT exhaust manifold in 2007. I think I had to modify the bracket to give access to the bleed nipple in the loop of the rear pipe (see pics) I cut the exhaust studs to a minimum and used 10mm/5/16" UNF mini nuts. I used a 5/16" UNC bolt with a 10mm head for the rearmost stud.

I don't remember any problems with the manifold or exhaust pipe interfering with the chassis or gearbox, although I did have to cut away a bit of the fibreglass flange at the rear pipe.

I subsequently put a heat shield on the manifold, and moved the bleed line to a bracket on the top rear left gearbox-to-engine bolt. ( top pic )


:)
Attachments
IMG_1018a.jpg and
DSCI0007.JPG and
DSCI0008.JPG and
DSCI0009.JPG and
DSCI0005.JPG and
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PostPost by: pharriso » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:29 pm

Haven't fitted my Voigt box yet, but here is the mount that it came with:
IMG_0097.jpg and

IMG_0098.jpg and


I can take measurements / create a print if you like.
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