Lotus Elan

Quaiffe Helical Gear set for 4 speed

PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:13 pm

ceejay wrote:While I am in the process of rebuilding my twin cam engine, the gear box is just sitting there, so I thought that it might be of help to someone if I took the cover off the box and took a shot of the internal helical gears, this is the bullet box, very tall first gear, close ratio gears... this gear box is a delight on the road, or up in the aussie alps in the summer, I run a 3.55 diff ratio, and while it does make first gear very tall and takes a bit of gentle clutch feathering to get it off the line, to me it is the perfect elan gear box.

And runs very quiet.

Shot is taken between the shifter rails, and the angle of the gear teeth are quite evident, If I ever required replacements, I would certainly look to the same gear design.

I don't know the early history of the gear box, whether it was built from parts obtained from the UK, (This would have been in the 1970s) Or if the likes of local Aussie gearbox manufacturer's, Peter Holinger or perhaps others machined/supplied the bits.

There are several engineering places around who would be capable of the CNC machining process, but at what cost I would not know, its a fact that gearbox parts are not cheap, but it is, what it is, I guess.


You can get anything made at a price. i currently have a large ( it weighs around 3 tonnes) industrial gear box under repair. The quote for cutting 2 new gears plus a rebuild of the box is around A$150k the cost for a complete new gear box is around A$250k . The box failed because of poor assembly and to much shaft end float the last time it was rebuilt at another re-builder. Still trying to decide the best option as we also have a spare gearbox of another make and to adapt the drive to use this spare is less than either option around the current gearbox. Its just like an Elan except on a larger scale in both weight an $.

Also don't get me into a debate as to the oil and oil cooling that should be used in these boxes :lol:

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7646
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: ceejay » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:01 pm

Interesting conundrum you are facing Rohan with the industrial gear box repair, it has presented more dramas than anyone would want, but knowing you, the right solution will be found.

Reading your comments re proper grade of oil and cooling for the elan gear box, if one was to run the elan in a Targa style tarmac rally event, or perhaps like you, compete in historic events.

What would be the best type of gear oil that should be used in the elan gear box?

As mentioned above, I run an 80 grade gear oil, with a Nulon anti friction additive, it seems to work well as there has been no gearbox issues over the past thirty years.
.
Many race cars are fitted with oil coolers for the gearbox and also the diff, wouldn't that be an over kill for normal competition in an elan.

The Ford gearbox must be made tough like the old MG TC gear box, as they both seem to cope with engine power outputs way in excess of what they were ever designed for.
ceejay
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 535
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Location: Australia

PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:29 pm

I would think unless your into endurance racing in hot climates a gearbox or diff cooler are overkill especially if using modern polyolester synthetic oils like Redline which are very heat tolerant.

I prefer Redline MTL 75W/80 GL4 oil in the gear box as it is formulated specifically for the friction characteristics needed for syncro gearboxs and gives a very smooth and quick gear change. i have never seen a need to use heavier oils in the gear box.

I prefer Redline 75W/90 GL5 oil in the diff as again it is specifically formulated for hypoid style diffs.

Redline was the first company to start making these style of oils for the auto market based on the base oil technology that was developed for improving lubrication in gas turbine engines. There are other companies that have followed suit and now make similar products

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7646
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:05 am

Went to place an order with TTR for the Quaiffe helical gear set today but the feedback was they cannot supply currently due to "quality problems" that need resolution, so not currently taking orders. Hopefully my current Elan gear box lasts until they resolve it. I wonder if it relates to the change to a much thicker 140 gear oil specification as discussed above

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7646
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: Gopherit » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:54 am

Firstly, Rohan, did you eventually get a gearset from TTR?

Secondly, anyone tried this offering from Kelvedon which is priced exactly the same as the Quaife/TTR set?

https://kelvedonlotus.co.uk/product/gea ... ose-ratio/

Paul
It's not a rehearsal
Gopherit
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Guildford, Surrey

PostPost by: jono » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:40 pm

I ran one in my Plus 2 - the ratios were ace bit they are quite noisy ('semi helical') and rather tiring in a road car
jono
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1672
Joined: 17 May 2007
Location: The wet bit in the top corner of England

PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:25 pm

I ordered one from TTR but they said they were not available due to "quality problems" and they did not know when they would become available again. i have checked a couple of times since but still not available.

They would not expand on what the quality problems were.

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7646
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: jono » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:02 am

MKF who supplied my ratios were tied up with illegal gun manufacture (I subsequently discovered!), I missed the outcome at the time but it seems Mark Kinman died in prison awaiting sentence. Judging by the time dished out to the other two, he probably got of lightly :shock: :

https://news.sky.com/story/gang-built-g ... s-11714996

Can't help but feel sad however that such an obviously talented engineer saw fit to get involved in that sort of activity :(

I've often wondered whether he was the brains behind all of these re introduced gearsets and, if so, whether that might explain the 'quality issues' cited by TTR :?:
jono
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1672
Joined: 17 May 2007
Location: The wet bit in the top corner of England

PostPost by: nmauduit » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:56 pm

jono wrote:MKF who supplied my ratios were tied up with illegal gun manufacture (I subsequently discovered!), I missed the outcome at the time but it seems Mark Kinman died in prison awaiting sentence. Judging by the time dished out to the other two, he probably got of lightly :shock: :

https://news.sky.com/story/gang-built-g ... s-11714996

Can't help but feel sad however that such an obviously talented engineer saw fit to get involved in that sort of activity :(

I've often wondered whether he was the brains behind all of these re introduced gearsets and, if so, whether that might explain the 'quality issues' cited by TTR :?:


about the shady operation : MKF still has my short block intended for a GTS project, all paid up for, plus extra parts sent for clearance tolerancing and balancing... From his good reputation the owner then had me hanging for a couple year till sent in custody, and in spite of my numerous attempts to get the UK Officials to inform me of eventual liquidators all I managed to find out a year after his death was that his wife also had passed away, and the coordinates of the legal office supposedly in charge of his interests for the trial - needless to say they never got back to me.

Quaife having all the facility and manpower to machining gears I would doubt they would have subcontracted any work to a small operation like MKF (a few months before getting arrested down he was to hire one person as he told me, to free up some time for machining...).
S4SE 36/8198
User avatar
nmauduit
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: 02 Sep 2013
Location: France

PostPost by: jono » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:38 pm

nmauduit wrote:
jono wrote:MKF who supplied my ratios were tied up with illegal gun manufacture (I subsequently discovered!), I missed the outcome at the time but it seems Mark Kinman died in prison awaiting sentence. Judging by the time dished out to the other two, he probably got of lightly :shock: :

https://news.sky.com/story/gang-built-g ... s-11714996

Can't help but feel sad however that such an obviously talented engineer saw fit to get involved in that sort of activity :(

I've often wondered whether he was the brains behind all of these re introduced gearsets and, if so, whether that might explain the 'quality issues' cited by TTR :?:


about the shady operation : MKF still has my short block intended for a GTS project, all paid up for, plus extra parts sent for clearance tolerancing and balancing... From his good reputation the owner then had me hanging for a couple year till sent in custody, and in spite of my numerous attempts to get the UK Officials to inform me of eventual liquidators all I managed to find out a year after his death was that his wife also had passed away, and the coordinates of the legal office supposedly in charge of his interests for the trial - needless to say they never got back to me.

Quaife having all the facility and manpower to machining gears I would doubt they would have subcontracted any work to a small operation like MKF (a few months before getting arrested down he was to hire one person as he told me, to free up some time for machining...).


Damn, that's a sorry tail and what a bummer you've 'lost' the block:(

I'd not anticipated he would have been doing the production work, just wondering whether he perhaps licenced the design or IP to others? I guess we'll never know.

He productionised the Caterham 6 speed box as I understand it so he clearly knew his onions when it came to gearboxes
jono
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1672
Joined: 17 May 2007
Location: The wet bit in the top corner of England

PostPost by: Frogelan » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:23 pm

My understanding is that TTR bought a big batch of gearsets from Quaife, and very unusually, the gearset had some production problem which has made the batch extremely noisy.

This type of problem can happen.

After helping a French racer to locate just gearset parts needed to solve his gremlins (from a MKF gearset...) with the considerate help of Eddie Thompson, I'm sure that the best bet is to be patient and discuss the matter with him. I hope this helps!
1965 Lotus Elan S2 26/4022 (originally Dutchess Lotus East, PA and NJ Area, USA)
Frogelan
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 434
Joined: 03 Jul 2017
Location: Paris, France
Previous

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: ElanAl, jc999 and 6 guests