Lotus Elan

5 Speed clutch

PostPost by: vincereynard » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:09 pm

I upended the gearbox to get it out of the way and upon being lifted a tube fell out!

Looking at the manual it would appear that a tube was pressed into the front cover and acted as a guide for the release bearing?

This appears to have been loose for some time as it has distinct evidence of having been rotated in the clutch release bearing housing and has marked the gearbox front cover.

p1050159.jpg and


p1050160.jpg and


Does anyone know the dimensions / availability of the front oil seal? If I have to take of the cover to replace the tube I may as well replace that as well.

I can get approx 1.8 mm movement at the extreme end of the input shaft. As this will be supported on a new spigot is this excessive? ( There is no sight of oil leak or nasty noises as yet.)

Lastly how does the big D shaped thing fit into the scheme of things?

p1050162.jpg and


Many thanks
Vince
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PostPost by: ElanDNA » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:22 pm

Hi Vince
Hope picture helps
p0615.jpg and

Cheers Urs
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PostPost by: mbell » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:46 pm

Hi Vince,

Seals should be available from usual suppliers. I got seal sets from both Sue Miller and SJ while I had my box out, there a rubber lip around the shaft and a paper one behind the housing.

My box also had a "small" amount of play on the input shaft. I don't think it was as much as 1.8mm maybe ~1mm. My box had had a recent rebuild by the looks of things. The input bearing, if still the original narrow ones, are a know weak point on these so check them carefully. There a mod to swap to more robust wider bearing as used in later Elcat boxes, but does require a little more work that swapping out the bearing.

As shown by Urs the big D goes between the clutch arm and the release bearing.

If/when you pull the nose off I'd really appreciate a photo of the spacer between the input bearing and the nose housing.This was missing on my box, causing the loss of 4th gear, and I had to get one made up with no references to the original. So would like to see how different it is to the original!

Thanks,

Mark
'73 +2 130/5 RHD, now on the road and very slowly rolling though a "restoration"
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:09 pm

ElanDNA wrote:Hi Vince
Hope picture helps
Cheers Urs


Sparkly or what! I doobt I shall get Toad's that clean.

mbell wrote:Hi Vince,

Seals should be available from usual suppliers. I got seal sets from both Sue Miller and SJ while I had my box out, there a rubber lip around the shaft and a paper one behind the housing.

If/when you pull the nose off I'd really appreciate a photo of the spacer between the input bearing and the nose housing.This was missing on my box, causing the loss of 4th gear, and I had to get one made up with no references to the original. So would like to see how different it is to the original!

Thanks,
Mark


Correct. They have them on SJs. I should have looked first.

I shall pop the front off in a day or so and get an image or 2 for you. Know where I can get a new tube?

Vince
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PostPost by: mbell » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:25 pm

vincereynard wrote:I shall pop the front off in a day or so and get an image or 2 for you. Know where I can get a new tube?


Thanks. No idea on the tube. There doesn't seem to be any obvious damage to the tube from the photo so I'd be as suspicious of the nose housing as the tube. Personally I think I'd just be trying to refit the current tube to nose housing unless there any significant damage on either. If they not a very tight fit I'd look at some kind of bearing adhesive or shim to make a tight fit.
'73 +2 130/5 RHD, now on the road and very slowly rolling though a "restoration"
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:16 pm

Mark

A couple of images as requested.

If it is of interest, when I put the front cover back on without a gasket, and tweaked the bolts up hand tight, there is a .23 >.25 mm gap between cover and case.

p1050165.jpg and


p1050167.jpg and


p1050166.jpg and
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PostPost by: mbell » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:32 pm

Thanks Vince, that last shot is the money shot. The spacer is still wedge in the nose cover, looks thicker wall than I used. I also had a cut out in mine to drain from the input shaft area down to the second motion shaft, based on the cut out in the nose housing.

That clearance sounds about right to me and I had similar clearance with my custom spacer. The gasket is around 0.2mm and the housing needs to hold the input shaft bearing in place firmly. If it's allowed to move you can have problems selecting 4th our with it rotating in place.

Note for the gasket I got two different thickness one, a thinner one from sue Miller that I used and thicker one from sj. Sure both would work fine but might be useful to know.

Cheers,

Mark
'73 +2 130/5 RHD, now on the road and very slowly rolling though a "restoration"
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:56 pm

Urs

You gearbox does not appear to have the "guide" tube fitted. Maybe it was removed in later boxes?

Mark
Thanks for the head up re. the oil drain, I've drilled a 3.5 mm hole as a gesture. It might do some good.

Vince
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PostPost by: NickD » Thu May 11, 2017 6:14 pm

Vince, I was just looking at your pictures of the release bearing tube and suspect that it might have been replaced or modified before. The original tubes had a flange at the inner (gearbox) end to retain the tube in the housing, and the housing was staked to prevent the tube moving inwards towards the gearbox (although this staking may only have been introduced in later production). I've seen a few gearboxes where the tube has come loose - including my own - as the supporting area in the housing is only about 1/2" long and is a little too short to provide a rigid support for the tube.
guide-tube.jpg and
gt-staking.jpg and
Staking
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Thu May 11, 2017 7:19 pm

NickD wrote:Vince, I was just looking at your pictures of the release bearing tube and suspect that it might have been replaced or modified before. The original tubes had a flange at the inner (gearbox) end to retain the tube in the housing, and the housing was staked to prevent the tube moving inwards towards the gearbox (although this staking may only have been introduced in later production).


Interesting. Looking at the workshop manual (Section F Page 26) it looks like a straight tube. Maybe the flange was introduced as a later mod?

Toad was one of the first of the 130/5 models. I have used copious quantities of bearing lock so it will hopefully stay in place! (for a while!)

What I don't really understand is how it came completely out as the clutch plate would only allow a few mm movement?

Vince
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PostPost by: NickD » Thu May 11, 2017 9:59 pm

The tube in my picture came from a 130/5 too, but I'm not sure at what stage in the production run. The housing had cracked around the tube and a piece had broken away, allowing the outer end of the tube to move and wear away on the input shaft splines. The staked housing in the other picture is from a later Elite gearbox and is machined to suit the large front bearing, and Lotus used shims rather than the earlier locating ring to provide the bearing nip.
Presumably your tube was only slightly loose in the housing and did not come out completely until you seperated the gearbox from the engine, so probably still supported the release bearing OK as the tube can't move far in either direction even when loose.
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Sun May 14, 2017 9:28 pm

That's what is strange about it. There are definite signs of the tube rubbing against the front of the housing. Which would indicate it was completely out. The groove exactly matches the tube.

Which I cannot see as possible!

screenshot-from-2017-05-14-22-25-51.png and
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PostPost by: NickD » Sun May 14, 2017 9:57 pm

Yes, strange. On mine, the end of the tube is only about 1/4" from the clutch plate but is inserted 1/2" into the housing.
I do have a spare front cover if you need one. It's from an Elite box and so is machined for the thicker front bearing but also has the register for the early spacer ring.
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Mon May 15, 2017 8:31 am

Double post - see below! (I'm too late to delete.) :oops:
Last edited by vincereynard on Mon May 15, 2017 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: vincereynard » Mon May 15, 2017 8:42 am

NickD wrote:Yes, strange. On mine, the end of the tube is only about 1/4" from the clutch plate but is inserted 1/2" into the housing.
I do have a spare front cover if you need one. It's from an Elite box and so is machined for the thicker front bearing but also has the register for the early spacer ring.


Thanks, I shall bear it in mind. To fit the bigger bearing the case also has to be machined?

Same with mine there seems too little clearance to come out completely. Yet it patently had.
Perhaps the previous plonker who removed the engine/box did not notice the tube was loose and just whacked the engine back in? But then the clutch plate would have been jammed against the flywheel surely?
.
Currently I'm struggling with fitting a new clutch. It seems to bear little resemblance to the original, (no centre to the pressure plate for a start), and I suspect the release will have insufficient travel to operate it. I made the potential fatal mistake of assuming a new part would actually fit and be the same as the one shown on the site!

I now have 3 driven plates - all have the splined centres a different length and secondly located at different offsets to the pressure plate. (And therefore will sit at different places on the gearbox shaft.) One, kindly supplied by Grizzly, seems to be a NOS part same as in the service note.

I shall have to remove the bellhousing and set up some sort of jig to hold all the bits in place to check it will (potentially) work.
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