Lotus Elan

Diff. removal and jackstand placement -Snapped output shaft

PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Thu May 12, 2011 9:12 pm

Quick stop in today , removed circlip and the stub axle is stuck in there good. Service manual says "tap it out" ...hmmmmm :?
I carefully took a pry bar and placed it behind the ears as I rotated it around I tapped the lower end of the pry bar in an effort to fulcrom. Seems with spraying PB Blaster and many good whacks its starting to move out but I'm needing to break away for life again. Took the entire drive axle out of the way. Again , this is all still the passenger side.

We do have that other side drooping. I'd forgotten to support it , sorry guys :roll: But the passenger side is fine and is out now. Chirs says he's actually going to join in here and take some pics for posting.

So , is this common? I mean the car is mighty old now and regardless of how clean it is that axle must have been in there since 1967 .... or so. Chris never replaced it so we're calling it original. Next , of course , is there a special method you guys have found for ease? Looks like it accepts an extractor. If so any idea what thread size that is?

Normally I'd use my propane torch but with the gas tank right there I'm not going to try. Chris plans on replacing with the CV axles so he also plans on tossing the circlip and bearing .... as of right now. I'm not totally opposed to whipping out the torch and just being super careful , and maybe use a sheetmetal deflector.

Gotta sleep , see ya.
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PostPost by: paddy » Thu May 12, 2011 10:17 pm

Here's all the previous threads if you search for "diff bearing heat":

http://www.lotuselan.net/cgi-bin/search ... oom_sort=0

Using a bit if heat is far preferable to brute force alone. If loctite was used then you will definitely need it. If there is no loctite, the interface between the bearing and housing is subject to electrolytic corrosion and, as you can see from previous threads, the problem is not at all uncommon.

If it was me I would be trying a slide hammer and heat, increasing both the heat and the force progressively until it starts to move. Penetrating oil overnight might help.

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PostPost by: billwill » Thu May 12, 2011 10:36 pm

Take the petrol tank out ?
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri May 13, 2011 1:51 am

A slide hammer and suitable puller is what I have used and normally no problem. if you decide to reuse the unbroken output shaft make sure you crack test it and also examine the splines very carefully for any twist

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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Fri May 13, 2011 1:08 pm

Thanks again guys! Yes , I'd love to use a slide hammer but at this time I don't have one handy. Made one is school as a kid , but that's long gone. So what thread is that center hole anyways? Looks like 1/4 , 20 from what little I could see.

I'm going to use my Milwaukee heat gun , hopefully later today.

Don't forget , the owner is replacing all with the new CV type axles from ??? RDH is it ??? but I sure do want to be careful anyways and not hack away.

Nap , funeral , return to car if possible. Report in the near future. I know I'm forgetting something tight now but I'm overtired. Don't work overnights if you can ever help it !!!
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PostPost by: billwill » Fri May 13, 2011 1:22 pm

I presume that using a slide hammer or other pulling method on the shaft, to pull out the bearing will quite probably wreck the balls/rollers in the bearing itself so new bearings are required after doing this?
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PostPost by: paddy » Fri May 13, 2011 1:33 pm

Yes, I think you would be replacing the bearing if you have to force it out.

I think if it is heated to above 70C then the bearing's internal seals are destroyed as well...

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PostPost by: types26/36 » Fri May 13, 2011 1:36 pm

No thread in my spare or the ones I have seen, just a tapered hole for centralizing in a lathe.
In my experience they come out quiet easily with a little heat and not much force unless UNLESS the splines are twisted.
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Fri May 13, 2011 8:21 pm

Have a few minutes before kissing my pillow ..... Yes Bill , heat for the shaft only. I've got plenty of experience with using heat for extractions and experience removing and replacing bearings of all sorts. The bearings in this case will be discarded for the new axle system. But regardless I'm sure I'll remove them cautiously just incase. And I'll be very carefull of the diff. housing - all surfaces.

Chris the owner is busy tomorrow. Family day for me on Sunday so most likely you guys will see me back here on Monday.

Once watched a fellow Ducati owner/vintage race guy take his wheel bearings out of a freezer - wrapped in wax paper - and literally drop them into the wheel hub which was heated effectively around the bearing recess. Bang! Done! No tapping except for that last little seating tap you'd want to give it for insurance. So I've been a big fan of heat since then. And like many men I've bought a new torch most every other time since I couldn't find the old one(s) when I needed them. They do show up immediately afterwards though .... ain't that always the way?

Thanks again! You guys are really OK and I'd love to be a Lotus Owner someday. Looking for a Europa low budget project. I expect to throw horrible money out but I'd need it to be as minor of an initial investment as possible. My '78 Subaru 4WD wagon keep me "vintage" for now. Also have a couple of '66 Ducatis - one in a long term resto and the other going to be a fun project , not a restoration.
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Mon May 16, 2011 9:32 pm

Officialy entered the Swearing Zone. No bandages yet.

That stub axle barely is working its way out. Seems to have travelled about 1/8 inch and wants to give me a really hard time. I got the circlip out of the way , am using heat , bearing outer face has now become free - can see ball bearings. Used my heatgun for quite some time. Then tried my propane torch which of course is better but more dangerous in this area.

Is the diff. fluid working against me? Should we drain it? Again , we're replacing all circlips and bearings and going for the new CV type axles so don't fret about my wasting a circlip or bearing , please.

Thanks for any suggestions! I just did not have a lot of time so I had to give up after about 40+ minutes of actual effort.
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Thu May 19, 2011 10:26 pm

We now have both axles out but neither stub axle will come out of the diff. Yes, the circlips have been removed. Yes , I tried heat , PB Blaster , more heat .... on the passenger side. The driver side which we just got to a few minutes ago , is clearly not feeling any gear backlash. Infact it feels like you'd expect a sheared shaft to feel , just flat surfaced slightlly meeting each other. I made some effort but not a lot of time on the driver's side. Felt just as tight as the passenger side.

Since its apparent that we're removing the differential for a rebuild we started taking the prop. shaft off. Got 3 of the 4 nut/bolts off but for some reason I just couldn't get a good alignment. Started with the swearing , got overtired , really need to sleep so you can imagine how cranky I got working on an English car and all. :wink: So I'll be back at it tomorrow.

As we've been told we are expecting that the splines have twisted making this a difficult extraction and of course ruining the inner gear. I've got some questions about that too. I'll ask those in the near future. I'll need to look at that exploded view but I'm sure at least a few of you out there know what to expect or have a better idea of what I'll be finding when the diff. gets split.

Thanks for any help. I see this thread really caught on for a bit. Hoping it helps others in the future as an archive someday.
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Thu May 19, 2011 10:36 pm

Image

Thanks RD Ent. !!!
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri May 20, 2011 6:33 am

Just sounds like the bearings need a good puller to get out of the case. The splines twist just where they join the centre gears and if you have moved the bearing slightly the twisted section of the shaft spline if any will be clear of the gear spline.
I still would not conclude you need a diff rebuild as you can still replace the output shafts without removng or rebuilding the whole diff. The gear internal splines should not be damaged.

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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Fri May 20, 2011 5:41 pm

The gear internal splines should not be damaged.


THAT's what I need to hear. Thanks. We here are going back and forth on what to expect with internal damage. We sure do appreciate an experienced reply !! Thanks very much. I'd be very happy to leave the unit in place and pop in the new axles the owner will be getting. But of course he - and I - were a bit concerned over the "twist" once we'd hear that was common on these older Elans.

So when that magic moment arrives and we have removed the diff. axles would I be wasting time and be a bit paranoid if I somehow peeked inside to check for internal twist? Not sure how I'd be able to view without use of a mirror. Pardon my/our inexperience here and pesimistic approach.

Don't have a puller handy yet. Trying to avoid doing things like prying but would you advise using a piece of wood against the diff. case and prying those bearings out? And once out , they aren't going past the three legged monster , will it somehow take enough restriction away from the axle that it'll suddenly loosen?(be able to "wiggle" it out?) Or will I need to continue with the penetrant/heat?

While I'm asking - those prop. shaft nut and bolt combos - as mentioned that last one is a pain to get too with every socket , open end , and flat ratchet I have to use. Do you generally wipe your forehead several times and be patient with open end wrenches or grind a socket nice and thin walled or ??? First three were not too hard just tedious. 1/8 of a turn or less for much of their removal. We have nyloc (sp?) nuts on most everything. Takes a while before you can spin them off - almost untill their off before they really loosen. This falls into the "patience went out the door 15 minutes ago" catagory as I was getting way cranky from my being an overnight worker ,etc.... Normally I'd have just hung in there and managed.
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PostPost by: billwill » Fri May 20, 2011 7:11 pm

I'm pretty sure that after you have got the bearing out, you are going to need to get the broken off bit out anyway (not sure how (?)) and that will be the bit with twists if any.

If it is stiff in the spines it might be quite difficult to get out. Possibly clamp a mole wrench onto it and then pull the end.

It's part number 40 in the diagram and from what I recall the splines slot into the gears part number 30. It's a simple sliding fit (I think) if in good condition, so hopefully it will come out easily.

To those who have done this before: What is the probability of destructive fragments of the broken shaft being in the casing and will they all come out of the plug hole when you drain the oil out?


<later>

Just had a thought. Is the construction such that if you take out the OTHER sub axle, can you poke a thin 1/4" rod right through the diff from the other side to tap the broken stub out if it is stiffly held?
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