Lotus Elan

Diff. removal and jackstand placement -Snapped output shaft

PostPost by: Galwaylotus » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:54 pm

Just thought I'd mention that if the car still has rubber donuts the suspension should be braced so that it doesn't stay in full droop. That's bad for the Rotoflex couplings! :(
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PostPost by: billwill » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:34 pm

As you can see in my photo I don't rely on jack-stands, the ends of the support beam are standing on solid concrete blocks. Don't forget to chock the front wheels.


The hydraulic jack shown is only in place for the lifting.
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:55 am

Thanks again. Just a quick check in right now.

I do see the supports , thanks very much. I'm just getting to know the underside of this car and to me its an eggshell. BTW , you guys would love the condition of this car underside and to get to answering/replying to a recent post here as far as I can see those axles are fine. If I recall correctly we did turn the wheels and it made the diff turn .... sorry , but I'll have to double check that. If so , what would you suspect blew out in that diff. box? And can I split that sucker and get a local shop to press out and in and bearing , etc? Sure would be great to wrap up this problem by inserting some new bearings or maybe replace a ring gear , shims ..... but maybe I'm dreaming. Talk to me - speak of the world of the rear diff and all its inner emotions .... :roll: :mrgreen:

Managed to search the Archives real quick and did see the info on stressing the rubbers - thanks again !! Wish I could bump that post up but its locked in place. I'll have to get back to it and actually read instead of skimming through.

Thanks again !! and please pardon my wackiness. Just worked my overnight gig and I'm off to work a project an hours drive away for the rest of the day. Probably find me doing a car nap late in northern CT .... Cheers!
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:24 pm

the broken diff is almost certainly one of the output shafts as they are the weak link that normally breaks - this can normally be fixed with the diff in place if its the case.

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PostPost by: types26/36 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:42 pm

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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Sun May 01, 2011 3:02 am

Thanks guys. Pardon me for not mentioning names but you're all very helpful. I suppose to some I seem anxious to call it a diff blow out , so pardon that as well. Sounds good to me if its just an axle. We'll have to get our noses back under it. Please don't think that I'm near the car or have been hands on with it much. I'm just breaking ground here and we've barely investigated so I really appreciate the help. And I'm sure the owner does too. :D

Have to get a camera under there too for your enjoyment.

Hoping for a report of an axle failure ... stay tuned.
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PostPost by: bast0n » Mon May 02, 2011 9:21 am

Paul

One thing to remember is that when you finally wriggle the diff free of its nest it is VERY heavy. I am fortunate in having a hydraulic hoist but even then, catching it as it pops free is "interesting"!

Don't grow up too quickly.

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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Mon May 02, 2011 5:53 pm

bast0n wrote:Paul

One thing to remember is that when you finally wriggle the diff free of its nest it is VERY heavy. I am fortunate in having a hydraulic hoist but even then, catching it as it pops free is "interesting"!

Don't grow up too quickly.

David




Oh yeah! My Subaru diffs require a jack. Near about the same size on the Elan from the looks.

Waiting to get back to the car. Still hoping I somehow neglected to see a broken axle.

Crap , I just realized my name looks like that cross dressing weirdo ....dang! :oops:
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue May 03, 2011 3:08 am

The "axle break" that occurs is the diff output shaft between the shaft bearing in the diff casing and the splines that go into the diff centre. The break cannot be seen from the outside. If turning the diff input and holding one output stationary does not drive the other output shaft you have most likely broken one of the output shafts. If you remove the external drive shafts to the rear hubs and then remove the circlip holding the diff output shafts and bearinbgs in place in the diff casing you can pull the output shafts with the bearings attached with a slide hammer and see which one is broken. Yoiu can normally then retrieve the broken end still sitting in the diff centre splines. The unbroken shaft will probably also show a twist and be on the way to a failure so you need to replace both output shafts.

All this can be done with the diff in situ
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue May 03, 2011 4:12 am

Welcome aboard Paul.

If you need new output shafts, one idea to check out is to convert from donuts to CV joints at the same time while you have the output shafts removed. The shaft kit that RD Enterprises sells (rdent.com) includes new high strength output shafts in the kit. I have installed them in my car, and happy with them. Most of the other CV kits utilize your old output shafts, which are probably pouched in your friend's car. Other nice thing about the RD kit is it is located our side of the pond, saving on shipping; they are pretty heavy so not trivial dough to ship.

If you end up deciding or having to remove the diff, suggest checking out if the handbrake is working first to see if you need to fiddle with the linkage and 'tree'. Much easier to access the handbrake linkage & tree with the diff out, but the linkage has to be moved to take out the pumpkin, so can't function test it easily after it is disconnected.

Another suggestion Check for any leakage on the front seal on the diff. I believe you need to have it out to fix this seal easily, although stand to be corrected. I regret not doing this seal during my re-build, so had to take the diff out this winter to repair. Not sure of the seal details as I had the diff re-built by a specialist, although I did the removal and installation myself.

Quick comment on the jacking points. I prefer now to use two 3/4" plywood pads under the wishbones to get the car up. On my old frame I think I bent things a bit jacking on the wishbone mount area, although others don't seem to have a problem.

Good luck with the job.
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Tue May 03, 2011 10:56 pm

Just the info we wanted , THANKS you two !! Yes Rohan , I didn't get to see the picture posted previously or emailed around but did hear about it from Chris the owner.
Next up ,hold one wheel while we engage a gear. I'd had that thought but I'm not sure why I didn't follow through.

So since the prop shaft didn't turn any wheels we're going to guess its the passenger side first for now since that's the side Chriss says hooks up first. Again , need to sleep ....will check back tomorrow hopefully with progress.

While its on my mind , yes , I'd like to see Chris get done whatever can be done while the unit is out ... should it come out. I'm thinking its a good time even just for a fluid change. I have yet to investigate those procedures in Chris' service manual. How hard is it to add or change the rear diff. fluid? Requires removal of unit ??? Thanks again for all the help.

BTW I'm looking for a Europa project car. Blue collar budget.
Cheers!
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Tue May 10, 2011 9:36 pm

Had a little time today. Got the car up and on stands. Removed the inner rubber donut. Need to get my circlip pliers and my toolbox in general to procede further. With the donut out of the way I can turn the stub axle but no movement appears anywhere else. Turns smooth but you can feel a backlash type of play. This is the passenger side which Chris feels is the side that hooks up firstly.

Pardon our minor stabs at a time. Very busy and Chris and his car are about 10-15 minutes away. Hoping for a nice report soon.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed May 11, 2011 7:16 am

If can can feel something that feels like gear backlash as you reverse the turning direction then it sounds like the passenger side is still connected to the diff centre and you are feeling the backash in the diff gears.

Looks like it may be the drivers side output shaft!!
(hopefully it is that and not a broken diff centre or crownwheen / pinion both of which are much more unlikely)
The broken side should turn freely with no feel of gear backlash as it is totally disconnected by the break from the diff centre. The output shaft should also have some more radial free play as it is only supported by the single row ball bearing in the diff case once it breaks.

cheers
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PostPost by: SubaruPaul » Wed May 11, 2011 2:11 pm

Thanks! and once again , please pardon my limited time here and on the car.

Didn't notice any radial play on the passenger side. But as usual I was in need of wrapping things up and getting back to something like a life almost immediately after reaching this point.

We'll have more Q's very soon about the infamous rubber donuts. Going to check that driver's side for sure. But since I'm at this point and will have my circlip pliers next time I'm thinking about taking that passenger side out for inspection ..... what do you think? Or should I just jump over to the Driver's side thinking that's where the issue really is? I tend to agree that if the P-side was broken then it's not have any feeling of backlash..... so maybe I'm answering my own Q.....

How hack are we sometimes? :D Well , out of impatience and lack of my toolbox I asked for 2 awls and a pair of channel locks in an effort to get that stub axle Circlip out before going home - just because I'm so hungry for the answer here. A couple of tries and that was enough to say "we'll wait untill I have my circlip pliers". Damn close though!! Had both ends flexed in but could not get enough lifting movement thereafter. Fuhgeddabouddit ..... sorry for that too. :wink:

Sleep , kids , work ... then back at it tomorrow. Meanwhile Chris the owner is parts shopping.
Cheers!
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PostPost by: paddy » Wed May 11, 2011 2:17 pm

The casting is notoriously weak around that circlip groove and the lip can easily break off. So wait until you have your pliers and do it carefully. You can make sure the circlip is free by squeezing it with the pliers and getting it to spin in the groove first before trying to pull it out.

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