5 Speed box - or not?

[stuartgb100]

I've been thinking about a lotus 5 speed gearbox conversion, using the +2 variant.

I would upgrade the box as per the service bulletins, and change the gearlever spring (as per Rohan's recommendation).

I know that spares are becoming a problem, but wondered if the '70s Elite gearbox internals might be identical. Anybody know?

I thought spares would be the only problem, but a conversation with one of the "usual suspects" has got me a little worried.

Their opinion of the +2 5 speed box is not at all favourable ..... far too weak and unreliable (being Maxi-based). As for the Voight conversion ..... well, the ratios are carp !!!!

So, I said ..... what's the solution?

He said to go for what was actually an original factory option, namely a 3.55 final drive.

Apparently this gives an 8-900 rpm reduction at motorway cruising speeds, without any noticeable loss in acceleration through the gears.

Comments please.

Regards,
Stuart.

[worzel]

Hi Stuart.

Interesting questions!

Firstly, I'm assured by someone who actually knows what he's doing that it is perfectly possible to get the maxi based box to operate perfectly well but as you say spares might now be a problem.

As for the type 9 conversion is this to go into a road car?. The reason I ask is that I converted mine to type 9 some 7 years ago using a box from a 2.8 capri. In give and take driving ie what I suspect most of us do most of the time I've never really noticed the difference in the internal ratios and in any case they're not really that much different from the original 4 speed unit.

To give you an idea 1st is 3.2 (maxi), 3.35 (type 9), 2nd is 2.01 (maxi) and 1.81 (t9), 3rd is 1.37 (maxi) and 1.21 (t9), 4th is same for both and 5th is 0.8 (maxi) and 0.82 (t9).

The above t9 ratios are for boxes from 2.8 engined cars. those for boxes from smaller engined capris etc are slightly different.

The only REALLY noticeable difference is that on mine 3rd is now very high- mine on the 4 speed would give 13.12 mph/1000 revs using a 3.77 diff. Now with a 3.54 diff and using the same aspect tyres this is now around 15.75 mph so giving about 100 mph tops.

If you go for the box from a 1.6 sierra/capri you could always specify the fitment of the uprated 1st gear which gives 2.97 mph/1000 revs in first- this is exactly the same as the original 4 speed ratio first and the internal ratios on these boxes are pretty close to the 4 speed item.

In terms of usability- no contest I'm afraid- the 5 speed wins hands down. 5th on my car (standard spec sprint) gives 23 mph/1000 revs but I'm going to further increase this to 25 mph (only possible on boxes from 2.8 engined cars) as mine is still looking for an extra gear.

This is going to be very contentious a view (no doubt I'll get shot down) but on the road, driving normally, the light weight of the elan mostly masks any gearing differences- unless whilst driving you have your eyes permanently glued to a stopwatch that is.

Regards John

[sk178ta]

Well, in the last month I`ve changed from a 5 speed from a +2S/5 in my S3 to a Voight. The poorer change in the Lotus 5 speed versus the 4 speed was worth it for the benefit of the 5th gear. The Lotus box needing a rebuild, I went for the Voight and I`m delighted. 5th is even more of an overdrive gear which suits me, and whatever "carp" ratios are! I like `em. The gearbox, being more robust, will probably see me out and the old 4 speed which I`d kept in case I ever wanted to change back, I have now sold.
Apocryphal stories abound but my experience is current and first hand.
Jim

[stuartgb100]

Thanks John and Jim,

Just the sort of feedback I was hoping for.

carp was not a typo, just didn't want to repeat him word for word!

Yes it's for road use only, and I can't afford the Voight route, even if I wanted to go that way.

So if I do anything it'll likely be the Lotus +2 upgrade (despite the spares issue). If anybody does know about the Elite box possibility, that'd be worth knowing.

Anybody else willing to share their experiences?

What about keeping the original Sprint diff/final drive with the new 5 speed box? Any issues?

Regards,
Stuart.

[worzel]

Hi Stuart.

This is blatant opportunism-but- I've a 5 speed box for sale. Gearlever position as per the 4 speed one. 3rd gear on my car is becoming noisy occasionally so I built this one to swap over but on reflection I don't need two boxes and in any case the one for sale has the features most owners would want eg 5th is spring loaded and reverse retains the original Ford lockout system (the one in my car at present uses a cam arrangement to lock out reverse and these is no spring loading against 5th).

One other point- the box for sale has never been on a car so the internals are new/unused. I imagine that other type 9 conversions use boxes sourced from scrapyards with unknown histories.

I want ?750 for this box and if you add the other bits you'd need the total conversion would come in around ?1000- so it's quite a bit less than the commercial versions.

If you might be interested let me know- if you want I can demonstrate the one in my car given reasonable distances or if you just want further info on what's involved in the swapover get back to me.

Regards

John

[stuartgb100]

John,

Have sent you a pm.

Regards,
Stuart.

[msd1107]

Hi,

What are the ratios in your 5 speed?

And what is necessary to make a complete conversion?

Thank you.

David

[MintSprint]

As a possible counterbalance to Jim's comments...

It is down to personal preferences and priorities, but having run Elans with both the 4 speed and Lotus 5 speed boxes, I certainly wouldn't consider converting to a 5 speed. I probably wouldn't even consider buying a car that already had a Lotus 5-speed fitted (regardless of how good the car was, otherwise), purely on the basis that I find the gearchange qualiity so unpleasant - it is extremely vague and rubbery, compared to the rifle bolt precision of a good 4 speed.

The 4 speed Elan is very under geared for modern road conditions, but unless you are running it as your only car and spending a lot of time on motorways/dual carriageways, the more relaxed gearing of the 5 speed simply isn't enough to compensate for the downsides of lousy gearchange, poor reliability and poor parts availability on the Maxi-based box.

If you must have a 5 speed, save up for the Voight conversion, ideally with aditional mods by BGH Geartech.

All IMHO, of course.

[worzel]

Hi Jim

I assume your question about what else is req'd is for me.

Basically- a new propshaft (from gkn ABOUT ?120)

A clutch friction plate from DemonTweeks (about ?80)

A speedo cable (or convert a sierra one using the speedo head attachment from the elan).

A new metal support bracket for the box (you retain the original gearbox rubber)

That's it basically.

John

[Foxie]

I've gone from original 3.9 in my 4-speed Plus 2 to 3.55, then to Lotus 5 speed /3.7, then to Voigts T9/3.7. But right now what is just perfect for me is the Voigts T9 with the 3.55. Mountains or autobahns, it's hard to beat !

Sean Murray

[NickD]

The Elite 5 speed box is basically the same unit as the +2 box and can be a good source of spares. Apart from the obvious differences such as a different bellhousing, tailhousing, output shaft and selector rods, the later Elite box is likely to already incorporate the mods described in the various service bulletins. There is also another, less obvious, internal change where 1st gear (& possibly 2nd) may have a different syncro cone size. No problem here providing that you use the matching baulk ring.

I fitted a Lotus 5-speed box to my S3SE as I was fed up with the short gearing (even with a 3.55 diff). I rebuilt an old box that was in very bad condition as some of the gears had rusted badly. I managed to obtain all the spares that I needed (mainly from Paul Matty) including 3 new gears, 5 baulk rings, a new 1st/reverse syncro hub and all the bearings and gaskets. These parts were not cheap though (?750) so a donor Elite box would have been a much smarter idea.

I also fitted a hydraulic release bearing assembly as the steel input shaft sleeve on which the standard release bearing slides was loose in the front cover casting (a common fault with these boxes).

To fit one of these boxes you will need a new propshaft, a longer speedo cable and a different gearbox/chassis mount. The existing gearbox mount can be turned through 180 degrees and redrilled to fit and this gives better exhaust clearance than the Lotus 5-speed mount.

I modified the gearlever to suit the existing tunnel cover and to give a less rubbery feel and also fitted a 3.9 diff to get better performance in the lower gears while still having a taller top gear.

Overall impressions are:

1. The gearchange is fine - nothing like as bad as I had been led to expect, and not much different from the Ford box - just less notchy.
2. The 5th gear is much better for faster (50+ mph) driving.
3. Too early to assess reliabilty yet, but the box should have an easier time in an Elan than in a heavier +2 or Elite.