Lotus Elan

fascia decals

PostPost by: gus » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:30 pm

Modern automotive clear.

Did mine with marine epoxy, sanded, lettered, then sprayed with clear.

in 1996

looks the same as the day it was sprayed

next time I would skip the epoxy, it is overkill, and difficult to keep flat
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:12 pm

Don't skip the Epoxy...... It's whats keeping the Automotive clear stuck to your dash.

Did think about Epoxy but none of the people i've been asking have used it and even though it looks really easy to use (pour it on and de-bubble it with a blow torch) from what i've seen the application looks messy and it appears very thick.

I've ordered some Polyester clear for the job i'm doing so we will see how that goes. I have a bit of backup if it goes south as the guy who has been pointing me in the right direction has offered to call in when i'm ready to stop me making a balls up of it :) (having not used it before)
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PostPost by: Sea Ranch » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:29 pm

Hi, Chris,

I too have run into the UV cure products. Seems one of the features of polyester clears is that they are very high-solids (98%), very thick, quite different to spray than conventional automotive clearcoats (urethanes) and some do require uv to cure. But not all.

I have done some research from over here (Vancouver, BC, Canada) and haven't found anything close to me. But here are some products I thought were close to what the pros are using on automotive interior wood:

https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/c ... opcoat.php

A brief discussion of polyester vs polyurethane:
http://www.cavalierifinishing.com/polye ... ne-finish/

Here is a HIGHLY detailed discussion of application of polyester:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/P ... iques.html

This company is in the UK, so their product would be available to you (and the webpage has a perfect example of how "lacquer" seems to be used in the UK: it simply means any clear coat. You hear this when listening to videos of car makers talking about the clear coat on their cars).:
Here is their web home:
http://www.morrells.co.uk/our-brands/

Here is a short page on their polyester clears:
http://www.morrells.co.uk/clear-polyester-lacquers/

You may already be familiar with Morrells. Seems like a big UK company. VLI is an Italian division of theirs, or the other way around.

Interesting to hear your comments on urethane automotive clears. Over hear, the standard automotive base/clear system is "urethane" and very easy to spray and "wet sand" (flat) and polish/buff (but therefore not THE hardest product around).

In both the US and Canada, all base/clear systems use a water-bourne base colour product, but the clear is usually solvent based still. So-called "single stage" systems are a catalysed urethane colour coat (solvent carrier) that does not get a clear coat. Two part or two pack refers to products that are mixed with a catalyst before applying (thus the two parts).

Whoa, guess I've really messed with the thread now! So sorry . . .

Regards,

Randy
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PostPost by: Bud English » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:32 pm

As long as the thread has drifted... I'm redoing my dash for the second time because I didn't do my homework well enough the first time.

There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation in this thread and others on the best glues to attach the veneer to the substrate. You might want to check out this site for guidance before putting that fine finish over a veneer that may not stick long enough for you to enjoy the finished fascia. Make your own judgement on flexible and rigid glues.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/ ... -myths.htm
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:53 pm

I actually watched some Morrell polyester being applied earlier, to be quite frank i think it shouldn't be a problem to get a reasonable gun finish on it. I was expecting it to be like pudding but i was pleasantly surprised.

Decent depth to the clear for two wet coats.
20156040_1024015364367950_5792865942212531138_n.jpg and
Last edited by Grizzly on Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: Bud English » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:09 pm

That's the only reason I commented as well. The nicest lettering in the world won't help a dash when the veneer lifts (again). :(

Edit: Said Bud, replying to a post that just disappeared. :?: :?:
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PostPost by: Sea Ranch » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:26 pm

Interesting, Chris. I'm glad you have or are going to get some experience with polyester clears, as we're counting on your pro expertise and info :mrgreen:

Bud, thanks for posting that webpage . . . think I saw it a while ago. Can you give us a synopsis: what glue did not work for you and what did you end up liking? I had a devil of a time getting lifted edges of veneer glued back down tight on my original fascia.

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PostPost by: Bud English » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:47 pm

First I apologize for the further drift, especially when gluing the veneer wasn't mentioned in this thread. The referred to information was in another quite long fascia thread recently. Of all the things I've lost, it's my mind I miss the most.

During my first attempt I used a good grade contact cement as suggested by a friend in the cabinet business. It never really got hard and allowed the veneer to move around on the substrate when subjected to heat and cold. I don't think it was moisture related. I had it sealed really well with polyurethane. It lasted about three years before wrinkling and cracking the finish. This time around I'll use either an actual veneering glue, made expressly for the purpose, or West System clear epoxy. I have the epoxy but I'm leaning toward ordering the veneer glue. Everything is prepped and ready to go. I'm just waiting for it too cool down I bit before I do it.
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PostPost by: gus » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:27 pm

west system

I used the clear coatings hardener fro both the veneer and the finish

furniture type materials are not really suited for a car, its closer to a boat
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:29 pm

The dash i clear coated today had been re-veneered using Evostick, i have no idea if this is good or bad only that there is an amount of snobbery in the trade regarding it's use (so i'm told), looked ok to me and it's well stuck (no bouncy bits or glue bleed)

As for the Clear, good call using Morrell polyester...... i applied it in the booth with it flat on a stand, i used a UV lamp to flash it off between coats and applied three nice wet coats in total, dried it with the UV lamp in approximately 20 mins. It has some minor imperfections that will require colour sanding and polishing but the supplier told me to let it stand for three days before polishing. Don't know what all the fuss was about :roll:

I had a chat with the Morrell sales man who said they have five or six different products that would give me the same results but if i was planing to sticker the dash (which in this case i'm not) he recommended testing it first as some decals lift or crinkle.

Btw, Randy, The Urethane we use now is closer to POR15 totally different from the Clear used back when Water first came out (very hard and more of a satin finish), now we use a Acrylic Urethane hybrid thats more like thick Acrylic than Urethane to work with. The Urethane i used in the early 2000's was a pita to flat/polish, didn't have the gloss levels of modern clears and had no tolerance at all for moisture which is handy when your going over Water Base (If the Base wasn't 100% cured or over cured the clear used to dry fine with no sign of issue, polish it up then the first time it got knocked or gets a chip the whole panel would de-laminate and you would be left with just the base coat...... Great stuff) All that said i never used it on wood.... i tried Acrylic thinking it would be a bit more forgiving to the moisture in the wood but it discoloured and cracked up very soon after.
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PostPost by: Sea Ranch » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:56 pm

Again, Chris, you come through for us with your experience and first-hand observations. Thanks!

Glad the current project worked out well; I only wish I could now get Morrell products here in NA. Have to talk to some producers here, I guess.

And thanks for the info on automotive urethane clears. In 2000 I was working with single stage, and probably not even urethane. Last summer my Plus 2 shell was done in water-based colour and then clear and it does indeed sand and buff well (at least in my limited experience).

But if a guy could not get a suitable polyester (like your Morrell product), what would be your second choice? The current crop of acrylic-urethane clear coats? Direct to wood?

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PostPost by: Bud English » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:10 am

Gus- Thanks for your input. I have the clear hardener on hand as well as the epoxy. You've made that decision easier. I really like working with the West Systems materials.

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PostPost by: Sea Ranch » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:35 am

So are you guys saying that by using the clear hardener, the West Systems epoxy like cure clear? How clear? And it stays clear, no yellowing over time?

Thanks .. .
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