Foam filling

[mikealdren]

Has anyone tried foam filling any fibreglass cavities on an Elan or +2? The idea is that it might:
1. Improve safety in a crash
2. Reduce noise/drumming of panels
3. Reduce water leaks

Comments?
Mike.

[Bruce Crowthorne]

Can't say I would go that route.
The body is so flimsy that you would need to fill it with girders! Come and look at my Elan (it's in pieces) and you will see why foam won't make a safety improvement.

Where is the drumming? Maybe it will help - but again I doubt it.

Reducing leaks? Again, depends where they are. On mine there are lots of little fixing holes that were no longer used - I have just plugged them. I expect the doors / roof to leaf - TADTS !!!

Sorry
Bruce

[mikealdren]

Bruce,
Thanks for the quick reply. I'm rebuilding my +2 as a Zetec and making a number of mods to address some of the original quirks.
Having worked as a Noise and Vibration engineer in the past, I am keen to make it quieter without adding too much weight.
I was thinking about panel damping and had the idea tha (hard) foam filling some of the front sections and the wheel arches may help stiffen things and also may stop some leaks.
I've got the shell completely stripped and needless to say, I'm filling lots of holes at the moment - it's amazing how many odd holes there are in the passenger compartment. No wonder the carpet was always wet!
Mike.

[Bruce Crowthorne]

I guess you and I are at a similar stage.
Mine is and S4DHC. I have stripped the paint and had it painted, putting some bits and pieces back on the body and just starting on the mechanicals.

Still don't fancy the foam idea. How about glassing in some reinforcement? Lotus seem to use hollow tubes (look like glass fibre on mine) although I have read of paper tubes being used. That way you will get the stiffness and maybe get to block off another few holes......

What are you doing to your brakes? I am just at the planning stage, but I need to find a part for the handbrake on a rear caliper.

Bruce

[lotusdelta]

Hi All,
It makes me laugh when I reed about foam making your elan safer...I applaud your intentions but the only way to make an elan more safe is to not drive it....Sometimes ya just gotta throw caution to the wind, hold your breath and have faith. Remember were all driving 30-40 year old cars .

[Foxie]

Mike,

When I did a major body refurbish and respray on my Plus 2 a good few years ago, the boot lid was very flexible and completely covered in circular cracks, resulting, I have no doubt, from occasional use as a park bench. As well as repairing the outer surface, I drilled a series of 10mm holes on the inner skin and injected builders sealing foam. This resulted in an extremely strong boot lid with very little extra weight. I also used this foam to seal around the front wheel arch closings, which vibrated at speed and allowed mud ingress.

Sean Murray

[garyeanderson]

Why do you think that these cars are unsafe? The biggest concern is the front tire coming back into the footwell and crushing your feet. foam won't help this at all. I have never heard of anyone killed in an elan or Plus2 in my life, anyone know otherwise? I have seen an S2 Elan Vintage racer that was foam filled in the sills area, the owner said that he went hard into some hay bales and sustained little or no damage.

Gary

[john.p.clegg]

I've foam filled the front uprights on my plus2 just to stop them collecting road gravel and muck etc...

John

[mikealdren]

Gary and Lotusdelta,
Seem like I've touched a raw nerve here. I'm not suggesting that the cars are inherently unsafe but they are old cars. The chassis makes the elan basically strong but I wouldn't want to rely on fibreglass to protect me, I've seen what happens to it in an accident.......
Most older cars are so slow that accidents aren't to much of an issue but Elans are quick and I for one would err on the side if safety wherever possible.
I certainly don't expect an Elan to meet modern safety standards.

Mike

[RotoFlexible]

I have never heard of anyone killed in an elan or Plus2 in my life, anyone know otherwise?

When I first had my Elan many years ago, I had occasion to visit Lotus East in Millerton NY. There was a parts guy with a roadster like mine. Next time I visited, that car was out in a field with the windscreen absolutely flat from a rollover, and the parts guy was dead. Has nothing to do with crashworthiness per se, though.

[msd1107]

Mike,

Do a Google search on noise reducing paint. There are products that can reduce noise up to 20db.

Since you have experience in the area, some of the approaches should be familiar to you.

The first thing is to keep noise and vibration from getting to the body shell. That means proper isolation techniques anywhere the body touches anything solid and vibrating such as engine, transmission, differential, suspension, etc.

Plug up all holes that go from the passenger compartment to the engine bay or the boot area or the frame/transmission tunnel. Both are large sources of noise. Make sure the boot area is isolated, since the panels that separate the passenger compartment from the boot can be loose fitting.

Reducing noise transmission from the wheel wells is also very effective.

The noise reducing paint is elastomer based, which damps the noise in the paint layer.

Let us know what techniques you use, and their effectiveness.

As far as the discussion about the crash worthiness or lack of, fiberglass is probably the most effective material to absorb the energy in a crash. So as long as there is space to dissipate the energy, the body does a more effective job than a steel body. For roll over or side intrusion protection, there are rollover and side intrusion kits that can be retrofitted. I believe Spyder (spydercars.co.uk) offer such a kit.

David
1968 36/7988

[mac5777]

Hi Mike,
I can only address the sound issue. I agree with the others that the foan may not add much protectiion in a hard crash. The water leaks-- plug holes. Since you are a sound engineer you will like the site. http://www.quietcoat.com/ The company is sound solutions. They have applications for just about everything. It is a paint that 3 coats will reduce the sound by 20 dbs by converting the sound vibrations into heat.
I have a coupe so I painted the wheel wells, roof, doors, trunk and the rest of the interior and it really works. I have even installed a radio and can hear it at hwy speed. Yes, I can still hear the webers when I'm on it.
I too thought of foam for sound. I was told that if I foam the sill area that I would have a mess if any repairs were required later.
It works for my coupe. I assume it would work on a +2.
Hope you find this info interesting. Sarto

I used all of three gals maybe could have used one more gal but over three the results doesn't add a lot. I bought two gals in gray and one in black so that I could see what needed to be covered. You can spray it or just use a paint brush. I used a brush.
Sarto

[garyeanderson]

I pulled these pictures off the web some years ago. One is the press report from 1968 of the Elan passing a 30 mph barrier crash. The other looks like you could drive it home, somewhat drafty though. What the Elan is lacking is side intrusion an as stated earlier, foam won't help you there. As for stiking a nerve, not at all, I have had over 30 years of bonus time since I was 20 and nearly killed when the rusty steel of the Jeepster I was driving took my left leg off, nearly blead to death laying on the road with my leg still somewhat attached and in the car.

Gary

Every one have a safe Holiday

[Frank Howard]

For roll over or side intrusion protection, there are rollover and side intrusion kits that can be retrofitted. I believe Spyder (spydercars.co.uk) offer such a kit.

I had a friend who had an S3 that was broadsided, injuring his passenger, similar to Gary's picture above. After the accident, he rebuilt the car and installed the side intrusion kit which amounts to a bar installed in the sill beneath the door. I thought he was kidding himself when he said that he believed this bar would offer side impact protection. Even if he was lucky (or unlucky) enough to be broadsided by another Elan, the nose of the car would go right over the sill. Obviously, the chances of being broadsided on the street by another Elan or by a car as low as an Elan are slim to none.

The steel backbone frame was used in several open wheel racing Lotuses and it was one of the safest designs. The driver sat in the frame and was protected by it. The problem with the Elan is, the frame sits between the driver and passenger, so it is protected by them!

[msd1107]

Re: crashworthiness

There are many other pictures of Lotuses involved in horrific crashes where the driver walks away. The car may be largely demolished, but the driver survives. Fiberglass is sacrificial that way.

And I can speak from personal experience. One night, a lady from Israel (where they drive on the left I think) got confused coming around a corner and pulled into my lane and hit me headon. The closing speed was well over 30mph.

Her big Mercedes was barely touched. My Elan needed a front clip plus various other pieces.

I was wearing my seat belt tightly snugged and walked away. But the design of consumer seat belts react the stresses assymetrically into the body, and I had twisted rib muscles. Since I was training for a marathon, the next few days training were grim.

I agree that the side intrusion bars are of limited use if a vehicle crashes into you, but might be useful if you slide sideways into an obstruction.

However, the roll bar is of more use, since it protects you if you go upside down.

I am looking to put in 4 point seat belts but hope to not have to test them!

David
1968 36/7988