Elan +2 rear seatbelt options - pics please

[Iyarno]

I own the early plus +2 which has no sign of any rear seatbelts or mounting points.

I've looked through the archives and I'm aware there are several options available. 4 point harnesses from Spyder, 3 point inertia from Sue Miller and lap belts.

I want to keep things minimal, so for me I think the static lap belt is enough. I'm considering fitting them myself but before I do, I'd like to see photos of original/factory installations. Plus the retro-fitted options from the usual suspects.

Can we use this thread to show mounting plates and locations along with tips and recommendations for installation.

Thanks, Ian

[terryp]

Ian
Just thought I would say that when I first had my +2 I only had only lap belts, I was driving with both daughters in the back then 8 and 5, a dog ran out on the road and I had to brake hard. Although the lap belts worked , my youngest banged her nose badly on the back of my seat.
I then fitted Susan Miller rear inertia seat belts which were excellent. The only thing you see is two little inertia wheels on the rear parcel shelf and are very in keeping with the car. I too had early seats front and rear.
If you search the archives I posted a few pictures
All the best
Terry

[Iyarno]

Hi Terry I've seen your post and your point is noted.

Problem is I don't want to change the speakers (which I've just installed) or have the inertia reel on display.

Is it possible to mount them below the parcel shelf and have a slit for the belt to run up and over the back seat?

Can you describe or show me where the original lap belts mounting brackets should be located?

Appreciate it.

[Plus 2]

Lyamo,

Bottom picture red arrow shows the simple plate in wheel arch for rear lapbelts and there is one the same on the inner tunnel.

These would not be too difficult to have manufactured and fitted just four bolts and a standard seatbelt UNF tthreaded boss on the outer side so preventing any pull through, but what I don't know is if Lotus actually strengthened up the thickness of the fibreglass in these areas............personally I doubt it but just not sure if they did.

Regards

Steve.

[Iyarno]

Steve thanks so much for this. It confirms what I'd figured from the workshop manual, although the location was a bit unclear.

The outer plates will be easy to attach but I guess the prop shaft will get in the way the other side. I guess I could consider fitting it to the floor instead of the side but this may not be as 'strong'.

It also taken me a while to realise these are simply 2 plates bolted to each other creating a fibreglass sandwich. Is there really nothing linking them to the chassis?

I think it might be safer to just make my kids wear inflatable arm bands

Thanks again and I'll consider my options now I know what was standard at the time.

Ian

Ps. Nice plate.

[Quart Meg Miles]

The outer plates will be easy to attach but I guess the prop shaft will get in the way the other side. I guess I could consider fitting it to the floor instead of the side but this may not be as 'strong'.

The prop shaft won't be anywhere near the belt fitting, it's in the middle of the car!

Has anyone ever tested a belt mounting attached to the fibreglass using a plate? I used to have one, I think a thread had stripped on the proper fixing, but wasn't convinced it would stand an impact stress. I would try and wrap a plate around the corner of the moulding, Ian, if you can't attach it to the real chassis easily.

[Plus 2]

I agree that the propshaft will be well ot the way of the inner plate mountings but not sure how close the main backbone chassis is to the area and what space is available between to get any access.

I have been fitting the Mick Miller drive shafts this past week and never really pictured the inner plates but if the chassis just goes straight back unlike the front which Y's then there should be plenty of room for access but the points are higher up the tunnel area.

I will get under the car today and have a look at the inner mount area and see if I can get pictures.

The seat belt laws ''as in how an occupant performs in a crash with a seat belt'' were very minimal back years ago but the main attachment mountings did have to conform to a 'pull test legislation load' so there were some design requirements hence maybe the area at the rear could have been increased in fibreglass thickness as the plates are not passing through any metal part of the main chassis.

On the MGB roadster I have it is standard practice where seat belts are not fitted that a plate with the unf nut welded on is put in the rear wheelarch for the front seatbelts passed through from the outer side. On the MGBGT design of the same period there were bolting points fitted into the body and rear lap belts were an option. However I note the the UNF nut size is smaller non standard for that what was required for main seatbelts so again the rear belts perhaps did not have to comply to the same stringent pull test loads.

One of the biggest injuries to front occupants in crashes has been from rear passengers being thrown up and forward in an impact and it is the clash of the heads that creates the biggest recorded injuries. A child somewhat constrained in the rear seat hitting the back of the front seats (which will have some energy absorbing properties) will have a far better chance of less injury than if the child were to be thrown up and forward then hit the head of a front occupants that is constrained with a belt.

Note how I also fitted headrests which also gives some additional protection for this.

I was responsible for producing engineering prototypes for a large luxury car company which included millions of pounds worth of test cars for MIRA (UK test and Research centre for the Motor Industry) to do the seatbelt and impact crash tests on.

Despite compulsory laws in many countries for the wearing of seat belts older classic cars are exempted as there are no proven and tested points that were ever homologated.

Interesting to hear there is an aftermarket inertia belt for the Lotus as I have not seen these for the parcel shelf. The parcel shelf level just above shoulder height is an excellent ergonomic point for a restraint unlike the Ferrari 308 I have where the inertia reel drops down behind the back of the drivers seat to floor level and I wonder technically how this can even really perform and would certainly not pass anything today other than a pull test on the mount. I know on the Lotus there are two structural metal plates above the tank at the front area of the parcel shelf it is screwed to and a crossbar brace the bar the tank is strapped to but not sure where else would give any real strength. However for sure something IMHO is better than nothing if you are carrying children in the rear.

Regards

Steve

[vernon.taylor]

Salut Ian

I had the same problem for a different reason. I have a +2 cabriolet. The Spyder option was this:

... which with hindsight isn't a bad solution - though I would have had to make slits in the roof frame cover.

I came up with this which uses a pair of lap-belt plates, a length of square section and belts/harness with wrap-around type ends:

And just to be complete here are a couple of pictures that Terry sent me of the Sue/Mick Miller plate - looks to be fixed in the same position as my mod and also looks to clear the speakers:

Finally an idea but the belt would need to be dressed to move freely - so probably a cut or slit in the top of the back seat:

@+

Vernon

[terryp]

And just to be complete here are a couple of pictures that Terry sent me of the Sue/Mick Miller plate - looks to be fixed in the same position as my mod and also looks to clear the speakers:

Too be honest I had to move the speakers and recover the parcel shelf!

Bon Courage!
Terry

[Iyarno]

Vernon, in the last pic, is the seatbelt just resting in place?

I'm looking at the cost of just the Lapbelt plates - SJ has the back and faceplates listed for about ?10 a piece and I need 8. And that's without any belts.

Does anyone know of any generic plates that do the same job?

Think I'll give Sue Millar a call as I'm steering towards an inertia belt. If it's going to cost lots, it may as well cost a bit more!

[vernon.taylor]

Salut Ian

Yes, it is - I was looking for a solution. I would have used another pair of rear seat belt plates as the attachment point.

If I had to do it again I think I would install a non-inertia 3-point belt with the mounting plate in the position I used - I suppose I still could. Your problem, of course, would be getting a drill in there to make the holes - you have a roof and rear window in the way ! I suppose you could make a small inspection hole with a 1mm drill from inside the wheel arch to find the position.

If I had a car with a roof I think I would choose the Sue Miller option - looks neater.

I think Sue sells plates cheaper - and they're only steel plates to (try to) stop the mounting bolts pulling throught the GRP - so I don't see why you couldn't make some up.

@+

Vernon

[Plus 2]

Had a look under the car today (not much to see on a photo) and the inner rear lapbelt plate sits tightly between the chassis and the GRP just above the forward bicycle frame inner bush where the chassis arm rises to the rear.

There is enough room though to slide the plate up and whilst it may benefit from a two man job it certainly is doable with no great man hours or teardown.

Those pictures of the inertia belts posted look like the 'securon' multi axis position adjustable.

Firstly they are not handed and IMHO look very irregular as a result if fitted in exposed positions. I had them in my MGB and they were very sensitive. Picked up a 90 euro fine pulling away on a slope while trying to level the car to pull the belt over............. stripped them out and fitted a pair of the original kangol ones and just had them re webbed.............

If the plates @ ?10 are galvanised/zinc plated I don't think that is too expensive. However parcel shelves are easy to make up and I renewed mine with thin ply rather than hardboard.

Regards

Steve

[Iyarno]

Thanks again Steve.

The Securon belts seem to be the only 'easily available' option. Are there any other brands out there?

Does anyone have any Quickfitsb belts fitted? They seem to know what they're doing but they don't list their product range on their site.

Ian

[Plus 2]

Ian,

There are lots of belts available, even secondhand ones on eBay like these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kangol-Rear-I ... 5d4e750927

However you can't just buy any inertia belt mechanism as they are often designed to work in a particular orientation either laying flat on a parcel shelf type or positioned in an upright way. The factory OE types are not usually adjustable so you would have to decide exactly how/where you intend to fit the inertia reel mechanism before making a purchase.

The advantage of the Securon one is it has multi axis adjustments albeit one side is usually hard to access as I said they are not handed so the adjustment either gets upsidedown or tight on one side. As I said I have just removed a pair of these from my MGB as I found them too sensitive and often had to feed back in by hand or gently tease out even on a slight incline.

I think Rohan's experience/comment that if doing again he would fit a fixed 3 point is probably what I really would do too, probably going into the boot area with a neat inline slot for the belt to pass through in the parcelshelf similar to the slot on the sidepanel but smaller as the belt would not be moving and just static .

Whichever you obviously still need to fit the retaining plates.

All the best

Steve

[vernon.taylor]

Salut

I didn't slot my seat - the belt can thread between the seat back and parcel shelf OK.

I bought (for the front) a brand new pair of Kangol inertias from a seller on eBay and Lotus stickers from Sue:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kangol-Reflex ... 1321799729

They were a bit cheaper when I bought them - maybe try to contact the seller direct.

However they might not look very good on the parcel shelf - they're not handed, either.

The sandwich plates were easy to fit in my case - they go as far back and as low in the seat well as they can. The interior plates should have welded nuts. There isn't any room for use loose nuts but if you're lucky the space between the chassis and GRP is just enough so the plate stays wedged in place, making it a one-man job.

@+

Vernon