Lotus Elan

Alloy 711M Block

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:41 pm

So fifty quid wouldn't get it then?....

John :wink:
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PostPost by: petrolblood » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:33 am

I guess then, I'll better go for a new alloy BDG block. Mr. Wilcox seems to have much knowledge about them. I know it's very expensive, but I read some while ago what a Ferrari engine rebuild costs - 15000 ?. Wilcox have a 2.2 litre on his homepage. 90.4 mm bore and 84mm stroke. I am not an experienced engine builder, so if you have an advice for me not going 84mm please tell me. The bore will depend on piston availability.
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PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:12 pm

petrolblood wrote:Wilcox have a 2.2 litre on his homepage. 90.4 mm bore and 84mm stroke. I am not an experienced engine builder, so if you have an advice for me not going 84mm please tell me.


What is your intended use for the +2? You have a number of issues to consider. Is this going to be a track day car or road going? If you are going to travel any distance on public roads you might not want to go the BD block route. A 2.2 liter in-line four without balance shafts is going to be a very rough engine with annoying of droning at motorway speeds. In this context I believe it was John Bolster who said something along the lines of "a two liter inline four is an obscene object which has no place in a racing automobile". Also many of the alloy BDG blocks have no provision for the internal oil pickup needed for a wet sump. You will likely have to go with a dry sump system. Even if you can fit the internal oil suction line you will have to route an external pressure line to the oil feed gallery on the exhaust side of the block. With bores over something like 85 mm you don't have enough room for the standard cross drilling between cylinders 2 and 3 that feeds oil across the block in standard Cortina blocks. If this is a track day only project then these problems will only be interesting challenges.
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PostPost by: petrolblood » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:38 pm

Thanks for the answer - it's an astonishing forum. Should we discuss the point in the tech section?

I want to use my +2 as a street car, as we have no racing circuit in Switzerland. We have just the alps and for that it's useful to have a light car and lots of torque. I love my unfinished Lotus - in terms of design and practicality - I don't want a new one. So how to I have to upgrade my engine to have uge fun on the mountains? I can go for 9000 rpm and have horse power in the region where use it very seldom, but Jay Leno says op there it is really fun! If I go for torque and less rpm's I will probably brake some parts ... but which one? How much torque does the Gearbox and diff withstand? 150 lb ft? 170?

The dry sump is not a big drawback, is it? I guess the 84mm stroke is an overdose, the 77.7 mm as it is often used in a tall block or BDG can't be that awful in daily driving. Other people in the forum are pretty shure that the twin cam head could be ported to a breathing limit of around 200 bhp. So it's the question how to get to the bhp. I want do it once and right.

regards,
Willy
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:14 pm

If using a twin cam head you will be bore limited by the water passages, BDGs don't have any bore restrictions up to 90.4mm, twin cams nearer to 86.5 or 87mm. An 87 x 84 is still a 2 liter Twin cam and may shake a bit but if you spend this much on an engine you be silly to stay with the 4 speed. I think rear ends are tire dependent so to speak, once you start hooking up 200 hp and 175 lb/ft really well it will break, the only question is when? so enjoy and fix as required.

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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:02 pm

I have a BDA fitted in my Plus 2, and it?s very smooth, reliable and has bags of torque. It uses an AX iron block taken out to 1700cc, has pretty mild L2 cams and fairly small valves, breaths through a pair of 40s, developing about 170bhp. It used to develop more power with some wilder cams and 45s, but the guy who built the engine wanted it as an everyday car, so revised it for less power more torque.

The car runs standard everything, has done 80,000 miles since it had the engine (in 1971 when they first came out, but without the AX block) and everything is still fine. It did break a couple of differential output shafts in the 70s, especially when a magazine tested the car and tried to get an impressive 0 ? 60 time?they didn?t get one at all!. I bought the car (an early Plus 2, 1967) from the original owner, and he used it for commuting around London, and for high speed blasts around Europe. Max speed that he?s seen with it was 140mph @8000 rpm on a holiday in Spain, with his wife asleep in the passenger seat!

I?m getting a BDG built currently, which has been taken out to 2100 cc. That?s going to be built with the same aims as the 1700?lots of torque, maybe only 190 ? 200 bhp, so hopefully a well-mannered road engine as well. Russ? comments have worried me now, but hopefully the trade-off between power and torque will calm it down a little. The intention was to put this engine in an Escort, although I do have an S4 convertible with a very tired engine!

There is a guy who contributes to this forum who has a BDG in a Plus 2 in New York, and another in New Zealand with a BDA in a Plus 2?so there are a couple about, well distributed around the world.

And the engine looks like it belongs, don?t you think?

Mark
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PostPost by: petrolblood » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:53 am

And the engine looks like it belongs, don?t you think?

Oh yes I think that too. I also thinks that the heavier +2 deserves a 2 litre engine. Best solution is of course the BDG as you plan to install in your S4.
I regularly look out for a BDG engine in the price region of 6000?, but it's hard to find. So I went to the idea of installing a 90mm BDG block under the Lotus head. If you know a BDG which needs a good home, tell me please!
Do you have a historical MOT for your BDA Elan? (Veteran called in Switzerland) which you have to tested only every 5 years or so? If yes, how did you proof that your Elan BDA is historically correct?
I just saw an article on Ebay with a Broadspeed BDA Elan of 1972, which could proof perhaps the BDR addition as historically correct for a twin cam.

You wrote only the diff output shaft had broken ... so the case isn't a problem (better as the s130 has a stronger one)? Cool! And for the Gearbox I guess I have just the internals changed for Quaife gears. The 4-Speed Case should be a good one.

To Garyeanderson:

I believe you with these bore restrictions, but how did Mr. Wilcox solved this Problem?
Elan +2 S130 lhd disassembled and in wait for a BDG Block
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:12 am

petrolblood wrote:And the engine looks like it belongs, don?t you think?


To Garyeanderson:

I believe you with these bore restrictions, but how did Mr. Wilcox solved this Problem?


Maybe they are using new heads (cast to there spec?) to work around the issue or possibly selectively picking through heads with different tolerances?

Gary
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:33 pm

There are no issues regarding MOT here in the UK, and no proof is required that the engine was ?in period? with the car. A popular modification for the Plus 2 is to put in a Zetec engine from the 90s!

My block was from a ?75 Escort, and built initially by Cosworth for rallying. I think it is therefore an aluminium block BDA rather than a BDG?but I?m not sure of the difference. Certainly, the standard ally BDAs, as fitted to the last of the Mk 1 Escort RS1600s, and the Mk 2 RS 1800s, were wet sump in original form. But as only 11 Mk 1 Escorts and 109 Mk 2 Escorts had these engines, they are not in plentiful supply.

Two of the photos below are Ford Press photos of the Aluminium block BDA as fitted to the Escort. The next two are of my block, showing how small the gap is between cylinders. As Gary says, a twincam head would have to be highly modified to work. It must have a very strong head gasket as well!.

It is very difficult to get hold of these engines second-hand, as most of them were blown up in use rallying. If a good one does turn up, they are snapped up by the Escort boys for specific historic rally categories, or the originality boys for use in road going RS1600 / 1800 cars. So realistically, a new BDG block is the way to go.

Unless you are a very experienced engineer, I would have a long talk with Wilcox to work out the best approach to your needs. He?s done it all, and will be able to provide a solution, at a price. I guess that you need to retain the twincam head for local MOT rules, and to convince the authorities that the engine is standard?
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PostPost by: Robbie693 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:49 pm

Hi Mark,

Are you going to take Bumpy to Donnington sometime?

I'm sure you'll get a lot of interest if you do

Robbie
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:58 pm

Sometime, Robbie! When I bought Bumpy the engine and bodywork had been restored to perfection (the expensive bits!), but still had the original chassis, which was showing signs of being unwell. Despite my best efforts of persuasion, it has refused to heal itself, and due to my enthusiastic trying-out the car, now has a lot more negative camber on one side than the other. The car came with a new chassis, and I just haven't got around to fitting it yet! I keep getting sidetracked with yet another project....but it will be done soon, if not by me, then I may just enlist the help of Mr Matty.

But you're very welcome to come and have a viewing anytime if you ever get down to this part of the world. It's a great little car, and caused big upset at Lotus after Motoring News did an write up on it in 1972 and suggested that this was the engine that should have been fitted to Elans rather than the Big Valve...Mr Chapman was not amused!

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PostPost by: Robbie693 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:25 pm

Thanks Mark, hope it's better soon.

Thanks too for the offer of a look see, that'd be great - next time I'm in your neck of the forest I'll look you up.

I imagine Mr C was 'not amused' easily!

Cheers

Robbie
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PostPost by: petrolblood » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:20 pm

Thank you Mark and Gary for your answers. It helped me a lot.
I have contacted one guy who probably will sell me his BDG Engine project. With two engines I have no trouble with MOT. And the BDG is a dream of an engine - but I will need your help then.
Otherwise I will have a long conversation with Mr. Wilcox which will also end with a second engine in Twin Cam looks as only the head castings will remain when I go for a 2 litre (my t/c is as new).

Best Wishes

Willy
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:20 am

elan-plus-f13/this-new-high-for-plus-t19368-15.html

There is a discussion in the plus2 area about highest price Plus2 that turned into an alloy block topic. I think it belongs over here except the For Sale area gets flushed after a period of inactivity. Hopefully there will be enough discussion in the future to keep that from happening. I was out in Harvard, Mass. at Bills shop yesterday and took a couple of pictures of the KAM block that I hope to some day finish and put into an Elan. This is a "drysump only" block as there is no privsion for a pickup pipe. There is however some material in the area that doesn't exist in the Jennings block and Bill thinks he can sneak a pickup pipe in to suck the oil from the sump without having to go with a dry sump in the Elan. If you compare it to the Jennings block that has just the main bearing bulkhead (they sure look like they are a good deal stronger than the KAM block though) without any other meat in the area.

Kam block bulkhead
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Jennings block mains
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KAM block oil pump face
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PostPost by: lotusanglia1965 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:16 am

I have seen an external oil pickup pipe,fitted to a wet sump.it was plumbed through the side of the sump,with a flex pipe connecting it to a new port on the oil pump.....
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