TRUNNIONLESS SUSPENSION KIT - GT6 VITESSE

PostPost by: munro1969 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:47 pm

Hello folks,

I am hoping to get some up to date advise on changing my front hubs to either the Canley Classic trunnioness set up with upgraded front hub and stub axle kit for £700 all in, or go down the Spyder Zetec conversion route at nearly double that. £430 each bare upright alone :(
I can see from some old posts the Canley setup isn't a straight forward swap. has anyone got these to work and what do they think of them.

Cheers Munro
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PostPost by: tvr78 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:51 pm

Why?
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PostPost by: munro1969 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:10 am

Because i am running different wheels and treys and a lot more horsepower than the trunnions were meant to cope with.one of them i think is bent a little.
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 am

Unless your car is front wheel drive, I am not sure about the connection between trunnions and horsepower to be honest. Fat tyres with heavy braking and high cornering forces I can understand, but not horsepower.

The Canley uprights have come in for some discussion over the years:

https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=47587

I was looking at them myself, but couldn't get comfortable with the change in suspension geometry that would have resulted in fitting them. I figured that if Colin had wanted the lower wishbones an inch longer, he would have made them that way.

There were also questions about the design of the fitting that gets nipped between the two lower 'bones and how robust it was.

Good luck.
68 Elan S3 HSCC Roadsports spec
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Various modern stuff
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PostPost by: munro1969 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:45 am

Thanks for the link Andy,

I haven't been on this website for some time now and somehow only found a discussion from 2013.
Anyway after reading though your link I think i will just replace with the original uprights.
and the fact spyder cars have put theirs up by £110 plus vat each side. :shock:

Cheers
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PostPost by: vxah » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:28 pm

I fitted them on my +2 some years back in an effort to do-away with badly worn uprights and trunnions.
I had to “modify” the lower arms in order to get the lower swivel at the correct angle throughout the travel or the lower nut would hit the joint casing.
I then found that the new top swivels did not articulate enough in full travel and had to modify them!
Would like to replace now with normal uprights etc but haven’t found any at the right price!
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PostPost by: Billmack » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:42 am

If your upright is bent down by the teunnion do not trust it. Those break over there.
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PostPost by: tonyabacus » Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 pm

Only just spotted this posting, but perhaps some input for those that follow.
The Triumph trunnions set up was used on a number of mass produced Triumph cars with a variety of power outputs without the need for major recall due lots of failures, which to some degree speaks for itself.

However in addition to Triumph this trunnions set up has been used since its inception by a wide variety of “specials” builders and a lot of race car builders, again with all sorts of power outputs. Ginetta for instance used it very successfully on the front engined G4 and also the mid engine G12 which in most cases ran the Lotus twin cam engine. In addition they also ran from memory the G10 which ran either a BRM or V8 power plant.

This is but one manufacturer and when you look at the number of race cars running this suspension set up, I don’t think you need worry about using the standard trunnions set up on you car.

There are a couple of caveats however, the first being the source of supply, as some that are marketed are of inferior quality, so when buying try and see them first and check the fit of the components. Secondly is the fitting and setting up, where care should be taken to ensure that they are filled with the correct fluid, not grease! Then make sure that the fluid is looked at every 2-3000 miles. This is a task that takes only minutes, but keeps the trunnions working properly, also it means you can check the rubber seals at the same time for deterioration.

I can’t recall now but on one of the Triumph sites there is a diagram with the machined dimensions shown, this is a must if you want to ensure the quality of aftermarket supplies. When building my G12 I must have checked a dozen or more components before finding ones that conformed to a good standard of manufacture.

In the UK you might call the Triumph Sports Six Club site (TSSC.org.uk) who I am sure will put you in touch with a good supplier.
Tony
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon May 10, 2021 1:02 am

tonyabacus wrote:...... Secondly is the fitting and setting up, where care should be taken to ensure that they are filled with the correct fluid, not grease! Then make sure that the fluid is looked at every 2-3000 miles. This is a task that takes only minutes, but keeps the trunnions working properly, also it means you can check the rubber seals at the same time for deterioration.....
Tony


As usual I must take exception to statements that grease is not an acceptable lubricant for trunnions :lol: . While a heavy gear oil in line with the original triumph recommendation may work, a modern EP lithium soap grease will provide equivalent or better lubrication in this slow speed sliding service and will be better at keeping out water contamination better and will be less likely to leak out over time and is easier to replace routinely.

Enough people in addition to myself have demonstrated this over the last 50 years to dispel the myth

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PostPost by: tonyabacus » Mon May 10, 2021 8:04 am

In deference to Rohan, I was making the point about grease as over many years as a garage owner I have seen all sorts of “lubricants” being used with trunnions. I used the generic term of grease to make the point that you should not use just any old grease that you have laying around.

Rohan is correct about the type of lubricant he is suggesting, the problem is more one of ignorance to some of the developments that take place during the life of a component. Technology moves on but owners are not always aware of improvements in products, others as I have experienced just use whatever comes to hand.

The origins of this topic may have been to look at options to the standard item, but I think the majority of owners will be continuing with the original figment.

With this in mind, perhaps Rohan given your experience with the product you mention, you might write a short reply as to the benefits and use of this particular product so that those newer members and those maintaining their cars, can get a better insight into why some of this newer thinking on products is worth looking into. But there perhaps is the nub of the problem, how and where do people go to, to find out about such developments. Perhaps therefore we need to have an easily accessible place for owners to be able to find such information rather than having to search through the various forums, maybe a “sticky” for such relevant info.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon May 10, 2021 12:53 pm

Hi Tony

50 years of lubrication experience is not easy to summarise in a short post unfortunately.
I spent much of my career for better or worse trying to solve lubrication problems in far more exotic and much much much more expensive machinery than Lotus front trunnions ( think a hundred million dollar piece of machinery and you are getting close) but the principles are the same :shock: I also been fortunate to have learnt from some of the best machinery engineers in the world during my career and I try to apply that learning to my love of Elans :D

So in summary about the challenges of "Lubrication of the Elan ( Triumph ) front trunnion"

1. The trunnion is a low speed brass on steel sliding surface. Brass on steel is a good combination for sliding service at any speed but works especially well at low speed and relatively low surface contact loads as present in the trunnion so the design and materials selection is basically OK. The design detail with the segmented thread in the trunnion is also good as it ensures a good lubricant supply to the sliding surfaces ( especially if you use grease ... surprise!)

2. Both oil and grease are OK for this low speed service if you can keep it in contact with the sliding surfaces and un-contaminated. At higher speed such as in a gear box where you have brass and steel sliding services in the shift forks and synchros, oil is more desirable as well as the fact that it is needed by the rest of the high speed gear box components versus grease. In things like wheel bearings at lower speed you can use grease as its suitable at these speeds and retaining oil in them is much more complex which is why all your wheel bearings use grease. At lower speeds still, like in the trunnions, grease is the obvious choice and was used for many years by many car makers for lubrication of chassis suspension components as it provided lubrication and stayed in place where tight sealing was not easily possible or needed if you used grease, like leaf spring suspensions.

3. So why did Triumph specify oil for the trunnions???? While I am no expert in the history of grease development over the years and cant read the minds of the Triumph engineers back in the 50's, I believe it was chosen as it was reasonably practicable to get a half decent seal with the vertical arrangement of the trunnion with a top rubber seal and due to the poor characteristics of greases back then in the 1950's especially with the grease caking and setting solid due to the soaps or clay based oil carriers used in greases then, so using oil was desirable versus grease.

4. The problem with oil is that the top seal is poor and water gets in and sinks down through the total depth of the trunnion causing corrosion of the steel. The pressed / peened in bottom plate on the trunnion can also leak leading to loss of all the oil. Also pumping in new oil is not easy through a grease fitting with a grease pump. If they really thought oil was the right solution they should have designed a proper oiling system ... but the accountants probably thought that would cost to much :lol:

5. So why not use a modern GL-2 EP lithium soap grease I asked myself in 1974 when I first got my Elan. The modern lithium soap resists water and prevents it getting into the trunnion and contaminating the lubrication. The modern EP grease is perfectly adequate for lubrication at the speeds encountered in turning the steering. Grease will not leak out from the bottom plate. Pumping grease in and displacing all the old grease with new grease is easy. So far my answer has been yes and that's the right way to go and I have done it since then as have many others with no issue.

6. People have successfully used oil per the Triumph recommendation and I am sure it has worked for them. People have made up semi fluid greases and I am sure it has worked for them. I don't say "don't use oil" All I say is technically a modern grease of the right specification ( i.e. lithium soap, Gl-2 , EP grease) is the better solution considering all the issues. Also don't mix greases so if using grease, use the same type and brand or clean out the trunnions and start with a new grease as the different grease soaps can react if you mix types and this can lead to problems


It a seemingly very small and seemingly simple issue but like most engineering problems there is a lot of breadth and depth of questions to ask and answer in coming up with a solution. I try to ask myself the questions before trying to find the answers :D

cheers
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PostPost by: disquek » Tue May 11, 2021 2:24 am

Rohan,

That seems like great advise. Can you recommend a specific brand of grease?

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PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue May 11, 2021 10:16 am

disquek wrote:Rohan,

That seems like great advise. Can you recommend a specific brand of grease?

Kyle



I have used Castrol greases over the years for all my uses as it is readily available at local suppliers in all the needed grades and types for my various cars at competitive prices. They have a product range which has been stable for over 40 years of my use so I can confidently use the same grease in the same application over many years without problems of incompatibility

e.g.
Trunnions
CV joints
Uni joints and sliding splines
Wheel bearings ( of the non sealed and lubricated type)
Trailer leaf spring shackles and override hitch assembly and ball
plus anything else needing a little grease :)

Grease lubrication problems have never been an issue over all those years in all my cars and trailer though I do hate having to lubricate stuff and then clean up the old grease that comes out :lol:

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PostPost by: disquek » Tue May 11, 2021 1:02 pm

Thanks Rohan

But which specific Castrol grease? They make many and I couldn’t find the specs you list in my searches.

The the past when I knew something needed good grease but I didn’t know which was best, I used Krytox. But I could only afford it in travel toothpaste sizes. lol!

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PostPost by: richardcox_lotus » Tue May 11, 2021 5:03 pm

I spoke to Miles Wilkins a couple of months ago when I refreshed my front suspension. He had maintained my car for 20 years. He used Duckhams keenol, for the same reasons as Rohan - i.e, lithium based, slow moving components and barrier to water sinkage to the bottom of the trunnions.

Keenol, as you might guess is no longer obtainable. He said Castrol or Shell Retinax would be Ok, although not quite as good. I investigated a Keenol replacement, and came up with this:

Ramonol White Lithium.

Note I’m not using it for wheel bearings.

Car is only just back on the road, but will interesting to see how it fairs.

Hope this helps
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