Lotus Elan

Evans waterless engine coolants

PostPost by: Tahoe » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:01 pm

stevebroad wrote:
Tahoe wrote:I remember back in the 80's a friend tried this. All I can say is I'm very supprised that they are still in business and even more supprised that the likes of Jay Leno, Practicle Classics, and Wheeler Dealers use this. After he had it in his car for 6 monthes he went back to the traditional stuff. Absolutely Hokus Pokus (my opinion) for the premium you pay for this stuff.



What happened after 6 months to make him decide to change back?


He used it in a '56 Chevy Street Rod, and it's been a while (almost 30 years) and I don't remember exactly why he went back to conventional coolant, but do remember he went through a very extensive process of making sure the water was out of the cars cooling system when he installed it. I do remember that he was also having cooling issues before installing it, and they didn't go away after he installed it. He thought this was the answer. The cause of the cooling issue was later discovered to be missing sheetmetal below the radiator which prevented air recirculation. Once those were installed, they acted like a shroud, and the cooling problem went away. This I remember beacuse we were at a car show one day and a bunch of 56 Chevys were there. I was looking in the engine compartments and noticed they all had the sheetmetal except my friends car. His car was in an accident an he figured that the body shop never installed them again after repairs.
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PostPost by: stevebroad » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:03 pm

Tahoe wrote:
stevebroad wrote:
Tahoe wrote:I remember back in the 80's a friend tried this. All I can say is I'm very supprised that they are still in business and even more supprised that the likes of Jay Leno, Practicle Classics, and Wheeler Dealers use this. After he had it in his car for 6 monthes he went back to the traditional stuff. Absolutely Hokus Pokus (my opinion) for the premium you pay for this stuff.



What happened after 6 months to make him decide to change back?


He used it in a '56 Chevy Street Rod, and it's been a while (almost 30 years) and I don't remember exactly why he went back to conventional coolant, but do remember he went through a very extensive process of making sure the water was out of the cars cooling system when he installed it. I do remember that he was also having cooling issues before installing it, and they didn't go away after he installed it. He thought this was the answer. The cause of the cooling issue was later discovered to be missing sheetmetal below the radiator which prevented air recirculation. Once those were installed, they acted like a shroud, and the cooling problem went away. This I remember beacuse we were at a car show one day and a bunch of 56 Chevys were there. I was looking in the engine compartments and noticed they all had the sheetmetal except my friends car. His car was in an accident an he figured that the body shop never installed them again after repairs.


So, he didn't remove the collant because it was no good, as your first post suggested, it just wasn't able to compensate for an obviously vital missing part :-)

You haven't explained why you are surprised that they are still in business and why you are also surprised that Jay Leno uses it in a lot of his vehicles.
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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:51 am

stevebroad wrote:
StressCraxx wrote:http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/pdf_3415_3.pdf

Approximately 69% ethylene glycol
Approximately 29% propylene glycol
2% Additive package

I will let you draw your own conclusions.

Dan Wise


It has to have something in it. What are your conclusions?


Ethylene Glycol is the primary ingredient in regular antifreeze. Propylene glycol is the primary ingredient in "low toxicity" antifreeze. There is no corrosion resistance in the two chemicals, so the additive package contains corrosion inhibitors, possibly anti-foam (a few ppm of silicone oil). So, the Evans product is simply a glycol blend with an additive package.

It is true to have a boiling point of 375F, but an aluminum piston expanding from combustion/friction heat inside a cast iron bore, will have enough thermal growth to seize in the bore long before the coolant boils. The cooling system must have enough reserve thermal heat transfer capacity to overcome the 33% lower specific heat of the two glycols. Either more air must flow across the radiator fins or the radiator must be of sufficient size to overcome the difference.

Antifreeze aside, distilled water with a non-ionic surfactant/corrosion inhibitor and water soluble lubricant package such as water wetter works much better.
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PostPost by: AnthonyBelcher » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:25 am

And this 'stuff' is not cheap. What's wrong with antifreeze and good old fashioned water.

Everytime I've had a car boil over there has always been a contributing factor. Low water level caused by a leaking hose. Standing in traffic on a hot day. Long up hill drags in low gear. I really would not want the car to be allowed to get excessively hot by the use of this 'stuff'

How ever complicated you try to make it, it's simple common sense.
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PostPost by: UAB807F » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:56 am

Ok guys, now I'm really hazy on this so don't jump on me too hard, but isn't this stuff less efficient at cooling than either plain water or the conventional water/antifreeze mix ?

I have a vague recollection about the efficiency of transferring heat from a metal surface to the coolant (or vice versa) which is really what you're trying to do in a cooling system, and how the waterless coolants were less efficient. I realize times change & science moves on, so if someone knows better please chip in.

I can see this has a higher boiling point than any water or water/antifreeze mixture, but surely the boiling point is a minor issue because once you're at 120C (or whatever) you've passed the normal design temperatures for the clearances and materials used in the engine ? After all you could oil-cool the engine if you wanted something with a super high boiling point but you'd have to upgrade all those hoses, gaskets & seals to cope with higher temperatures.

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PostPost by: Chancer » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:42 am

Thats how I see it Brian.

As for booking in your car to have the system flushed and refilled...........

Can I tempt the person to book their wallet in to me to be flushed and refilled with monopoly money? :lol:
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PostPost by: Coupe » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:19 am

Chancer wrote:Thats how I see it Brian.

As for booking in your car to have the system flushed and refilled...........

Can I tempt the person to book their wallet in to me to be flushed and refilled with monopoly money? :lol:




No more expensive. The 'flush' they use will do quite a few cars so the total cost was less than purchasing the 'flush' and having to dispose of it after one use. Why would you do it yourself when you can get someone else to do it for less ?
Also DLF are only a mile or so down the road.
I've never had a problem with overheating but always willing to try something different - it is 2012.
Most people stick with the same house, wife or car far too long..
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PostPost by: nomad » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:21 am

Well its my understanding that pure antifreeze in a cooling system doesn't transfer heat nearly as well as a water antifreeze mix.
Sounds like that is what they are selling and if it is then they may need a higher boiling point. :wink:

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PostPost by: Tahoe » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:17 pm

So, he didn't remove the collant because it was no good, as your first post suggested, it just wasn't able to compensate for an obviously vital missing part :-)

You haven't explained why you are surprised that they are still in business and why you are also surprised that Jay Leno uses it in a lot of his vehicles.[/quote]


Man, you're trying to make remember 30 years ago. It wasn't my car, so I really don't know why he changed back, I just remember that he did, and that we discovered another reason for his overheating.

I'm suprised they're still in business for 2 reasons. One it's expensive, and Two if it was the best coolant ever, don't you think it would be adopted by the automotive industry to some degree. I have enormous respect for Jay Leno and others, but I'm not even close to being convinced this is better than regular coolant.
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PostPost by: stevebroad » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:56 pm

Tahoe wrote:I'm suprised they're still in business for 2 reasons. One it's expensive, and Two if it was the best coolant ever, don't you think it would be adopted by the automotive industry to some degree.


IMO, two reasons. Cost and longevity. Why should a new car manufacturer add ?60-70 to the cost of each car? Also, if it does what it claims, car engines would last longer which wouldn't be a good thing for the manufacturers. They are in it to make money, after all.
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PostPost by: UAB807F » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:41 am

stevebroad wrote:IMO, two reasons. Cost and longevity. Why should a new car manufacturer add ?60-70 to the cost of each car? Also, if it does what it claims, car engines would last longer which wouldn't be a good thing for the manufacturers. They are in it to make money, after all.


I'm not convinced about that Steve although your point about increasing the baseline cost of a new car is obviously valid given how the big companies try to shave pennies off the build costs. The reason I'm doubtful is that one reference I read claimed an increase fuel efficiency. Now given how companies are pushing for better fuel efficiency, ?100 on a new car seems a very cheap way to get another 4-5% improvement. Even for my cars it wouldn't be a deal breaker, especially if it was a fit & forget coolant because plain old antifreeze is creeping up in costs these days and that needs changing every couple of years if you read the labels.

However, you've got me hooked with this thread so I thought I'd do some searching, and I've got varying results. There's been a lot of discussion about these coolants and it seems a few racing teams use them to prevent localised boiling if they get held on the grid, etc, which does make a lot of sense.

But for me there are too many unknowns. Great play is made of the 180C & no pressure aspect but once you dig deeper I got a little more concerned. Firstly, the Evans FAQs actually state that the operating temperature of the engine may rise by 3-7C, which I assume accounts for the improved efficiency/bhp claims. I really don't want my engine running any hotter regardless of whether it will boil over or not because it just might pass on problems to somewhere else. (wasn't peak power around 70C on the twinks on that RR test in the 60s ?)

Secondly I found references to increased oil temperatures after conversion, which makes sense because if your coolant isn't as efficient at heat transfer from block to radiator, then more heat will go into your oil. Again, not a great issue, especially if you're on synthetics but not something that's on the Evans' website.

My conclusion is that it's one of those "hmm, maybe" things. No major detractors (not even cost) but a lot of unknowns with the practical aspects and, for me, increased hassle. Not a modification I'm going to be trying although I can see why a racing team or car collector such as Jay Leno uses it.

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