Lotus Elan

Jay Leno Elan Mods

PostPost by: hansaxl » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:04 pm

One more detail of the most recent blog that intrigued me: Jim's comments on the oil cooler fitment. Did I understand that right that it is integrated with the radiator? Or did he mount the oil cooler behind the radiator..?

The benefit is obvious, of course. My car runs with an oil cooler, and it is always a drag to know that the warm up phase takes ages and the engine suffers a lot during this.

Could someone please enlighten me about this matter?

Cheers, Hans
'70 S4/Sprint
hansaxl
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 49
Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Location: Germany

PostPost by: holywood3645 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:50 pm

You are correct the oil cooler/heater is inside the radiator. Many modern cars us this design.
I dont know if there is an 'off the shelf' radiator/oil combo made that would work in the elan. I would be interested in getting one if there were.

James
User avatar
holywood3645
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: 07 Oct 2003

PostPost by: CBUEB1771 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:44 am

hansaxl wrote:Jim's comments on the oil cooler fitment. Did I understand that right that it is integrated with the radiator?


I am sure that is the intent but I had to chuckle at the notion that a "radiator" is something other than a "heat exchanger".
Russ Newton
Elan +2S (1971)
Elite S2 (1962)
User avatar
CBUEB1771
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1684
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: Boston, Massachusetts USA

PostPost by: rgh0 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:40 am

For a wet sump car using a sandwich plate with a thermostat that bypasses the cooler when the oil is cold is just as effective to get the oil to warm up rapidly and much simpler and cheaper to install...... but i guess cost does not come into it for this car :) and with the dry sump they have fitted it gets a little more complex to plumb in a thermostat across the oil cooler

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7486
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: stevebroad » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:29 am

CBUEB1771 wrote:
hansaxl wrote:Jim's comments on the oil cooler fitment. Did I understand that right that it is integrated with the radiator?


I am sure that is the intent but I had to chuckle at the notion that a "radiator" is something other than a "heat exchanger".


That's Americans for you -) However, I got what he meant - The radiator exchanged heat from the water to the oil so that it heated up quicker than normal and by being combined the water and oil run at the same temperature. I don't know whether this is a good or bad thing but at least the engine components will be at a uniform temperature.
stevebroad
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 918
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Location: Essex, England

PostPost by: holywood3645 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:13 pm

I had been told several modern cars using this air/oil/water heat exchanger design. After my previous post I looked the www to see if i could find an off the shelf item that would work for an elan. Couldn't find one.

Maybe some of the racer guys can answer if there are any merits to the design.

I think the engine oil would heat faster and it would provide an more stable oil/water temperature

I'm interested in other's comments also

James
User avatar
holywood3645
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: 07 Oct 2003

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:32 pm

Maybe I can throw a bit of light on the subject, having worked on such systems for a number of petrol engines made by a German car maker.
That company uses such a device on many of its present production engines.
The heat exchanger is usually mounted on the oil filter housing, where it can easily tap into the lubrication system to get direct access to the oil.
Coolant is then taken from the engine cylinder head & fed back into the coolant system where a pressure drop is available.

Due to the "work" put into the oil by the oil pump the stream of oil passing through the heat exchanger is capable of giving off some heat into the coolant.
That coolant is at that time (start-up) restricted to a flow that runs through only the cylinder head & crankcase & remains so until the engine thermostat opens & permits coolant to flow through the radiator.

This set-up can improve/increase the the engine warm up time & subsequently reduce fuel consumption & more importantly emissions.

When everything is hot the coolant temperature is usually kept at a temperature below 120?C whereby the engine oil will also be kept at approximately that temperature, that being not only safe for oil which oxidises at temperatures above 160?C, not at all good for longevity but also oil at higher operating temperatures is thinner without losing its lubrication properties will reduce the internal engine friction & provide an improvement on fuel consumption at the other end of the engine operating scale.

The idea of putting an oil cooler into the engine cooler (=Radiator) would provide no significant improvement in engine warm up because the coolant in the radiator is cut off from the engine until the engine is fully warmed up & the thermostat then opens.

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: StressCraxx » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:31 am

GrUmPyBoDgEr wrote:Maybe I can throw a bit of light on the subject, having worked on such systems for a number of petrol engines made by a German car maker.
That company uses such a device on many of its present production engines.
The heat exchanger is usually mounted on the oil filter housing, where it can easily tap into the lubrication system to get direct access to the oil.
Coolant is then taken from the engine cylinder head & fed back into the coolant system where a pressure drop is available.

Due to the "work" put into the oil by the oil pump the stream of oil passing through the heat exchanger is capable of giving off some heat into the coolant.
That coolant is at that time (start-up) restricted to a flow that runs through only the cylinder head & crankcase & remains so until the engine thermostat opens & permits coolant to flow through the radiator.

This set-up can improve/increase the the engine warm up time & subsequently reduce fuel consumption & more importantly emissions.

When everything is hot the coolant temperature is usually kept at a temperature below 120?C whereby the engine oil will also be kept at approximately that temperature, that being not only safe for oil which oxidises at temperatures above 160?C, not at all good for longevity but also oil at higher operating temperatures is thinner without losing its lubrication properties will reduce the internal engine friction & provide an improvement on fuel consumption at the other end of the engine operating scale.

The idea of putting an oil cooler into the engine cooler (=Radiator) would provide no significant improvement in engine warm up because the coolant in the radiator is cut off from the engine until the engine is fully warmed up & the thermostat then opens.

Cheers
John


John,

You are on the money. Some of us who race Formula Ford use the water/oil heat exchangers sandwiched to the oil filter to bring the oil temperature up to 180F+ so the oil thins enough to reduce pumping losses and friction. Oil at 100C operating temperature is 1/2 the viscosity of oil at 40C. Dyno results from a reliable engine builder shows 100C oil is good for 2 to 3 HP, with no other changes. Proper scraping and windage control, crankcase vacuum from the dry sump, can make significant power from the bottom end by reducing drag and pumping losses.

I am investing in several low cost solutions to take advantage of the above.

Regards,
Dan Wise
There is no cure for Lotus, only treatment.
User avatar
StressCraxx
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:33 am

StressCraxx wrote:
GrUmPyBoDgEr wrote:Maybe I can throw a bit of light on the subject, having worked on such systems for a number of petrol engines made by a German car maker.
That company uses such a device on many of its present production engines.
The heat exchanger is usually mounted on the oil filter housing, where it can easily tap into the lubrication system to get direct access to the oil.
Coolant is then taken from the engine cylinder head & fed back into the coolant system where a pressure drop is available.

Due to the "work" put into the oil by the oil pump the stream of oil passing through the heat exchanger is capable of giving off some heat into the coolant.
That coolant is at that time (start-up) restricted to a flow that runs through only the cylinder head & crankcase & remains so until the engine thermostat opens & permits coolant to flow through the radiator.

This set-up can improve/increase the the engine warm up time & subsequently reduce fuel consumption & more importantly emissions.

When everything is hot the coolant temperature is usually kept at a temperature below 120?C whereby the engine oil will also be kept at approximately that temperature, that being not only safe for oil which oxidises at temperatures above 160?C, not at all good for longevity but also oil at higher operating temperatures is thinner without losing its lubrication properties will reduce the internal engine friction & provide an improvement on fuel consumption at the other end of the engine operating scale.

The idea of putting an oil cooler into the engine cooler (=Radiator) would provide no significant improvement in engine warm up because the coolant in the radiator is cut off from the engine until the engine is fully warmed up & the thermostat then opens.

Cheers
John





John,

You are on the money. Some of us who race Formula Ford use the water/oil heat exchangers sandwiched to the oil filter to bring the oil temperature up to 180F+ so the oil thins enough to reduce pumping losses and friction. Oil at 100C operating temperature is 1/2 the viscosity of oil at 40C. Dyno results from a reliable engine builder shows 100C oil is good for 2 to 3 HP, with no other changes. Proper scraping and windage control, crankcase vacuum from the dry sump, can make significant power from the bottom end by reducing drag and pumping losses.

I am investing in several low cost solutions to take advantage of the above.

Regards,
Dan Wise



Hi Dan,

quite right; the transfer of heat from oil to coolant or from coolant to oil can be advantageous in many respects.
That is, that either the heating or the cooling of one or other of the fluids can improve performance and/or economy.

I have experience of a very efficient windage tray in a 6 cylinder engine.
It worked brilliantly as part of the lubrication system but the performance guys moaned at me about a power loss of 1Kw.
I was forced to introduce a couple of 25mm breather holes into the tray.
They got their 1Kw back & luckily the windage tray suffered no measurable difference

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: prezoom » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:40 pm

James,

I have a water/oil heat exchanger on the race car. It is one of the smaller ones made by Setrab (sp?). Hop over if you would like to see the set up. The engine is also dry sumped and I also use an electric heating element in the dry sump tank to help things along before start up.

Rob
Rob Walker
26-4889
50-0315N
1964 Sabra GT
1964 Elva Mk4T Coupe (awaiting restoration)
1965 Ford Falcon Ranchero, 302,AOD,9",rack and pinion,disc,etc,etc,etc
1954 Nash Healey LeMans Coupe

Owning a Lotus will get you off the couch
prezoom
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Location: Escondido, California

PostPost by: Ross Robbins » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Update Seven is now posted, though to be honest it is not much of an update. Not only that but the backsides of Jay and Jim Hall are in the way of the camera's chance to view what we want to see or more accurately the camera doesn't move to get in shot that which we want to see. Anyway for those of you following the progress on this "Mongo" Elan haere is the latest:
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/restoration-blog-1966-lotus-elan-26r-update-7/index.shtml
Ross Robbins
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 493
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPost by: holywood3645 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:53 pm

Maybe some one should have told Jay to buy a LHD wiring loom from British Masters, but that may have been too easy! I wonder will his Tach work with the electronic ignition?

James
User avatar
holywood3645
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: 07 Oct 2003

PostPost by: Ross Robbins » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:30 am

I guess I was asleep at the wheel over the holidays because Jim Hall and Jay have posted not one but two updates. Here they are:

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/more-video/restoration-blog-1966-lotus-elan-26r-update-8/index.shtml

For those using the queen's English instead of our poor American imitation, when Jim speaks of a
trunk
he means a boot lid and when he speaks of a
hood
he means a bonnet. Any questions? :D :D

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/segment/restoration-blog/restoration-blog-1966-lotus-elan-26r-update-9/index.shtml

This one seems to translate well.
Ross Robbins
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 493
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPost by: StressCraxx » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:52 am

Ross Robbins wrote:I guess I was asleep at the wheel over the holidays because Jim Hall and Jay have posted not one but two updates. Here they are:

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/more-video/restoration-blog-1966-lotus-elan-26r-update-8/index.shtml

For those using the queen's English instead of our poor American imitation, when Jim speaks of a
trunk
he means a boot lid and when he speaks of a
hood
he means a bonnet. Any questions? :D :D

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/segment/restoration-blog/restoration-blog-1966-lotus-elan-26r-update-9/index.shtml

This one seems to translate well.


Ross,
Thank you for posting. I was surprised he fabricated his own headers, since Dave Bean sells a SS 4 into 2 into 1 with a long collector that works really well. They are built by Callouette Fab of Benicia, CA.
Barry does wonderful fab work and the weld quality is very, very good on the headers he builds for Bean. Barry does not sell them retail, only through Bean. Does anything on the web page look familiar? http://www.callouettefabricators.com/capabilities.html
There is no cure for Lotus, only treatment.
User avatar
StressCraxx
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

PostPost by: carlt » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:50 pm

StressCraxx wrote:Thank you for posting. I was surprised he fabricated his own headers, since Dave Bean sells a SS 4 into 2 into 1 with a long collector that works really well. They are built by Callouette Fab of Benicia, CA.
Barry does wonderful fab work and the weld quality is very, very good on the headers he builds for Bean. Barry does not sell them retail, only through Bean. Does anything on the web page look familiar? http://www.callouettefabricators.com/capabilities.html


It is a big block 2l -
carlt
New-tral
 
Posts: 12
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
PreviousNext

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests