Lotus Elan

Vehicle identity

PostPost by: Apx » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:36 pm

Vehicle identity. UK

Having read various threads I am testing my understanding of a lotus ?lan identity.

If I replace the chassis on my ?lan, is it correct that,
1. I do not have to notify the DVLA
2. It does not affect the vehicles identity and therefore does not require the dreaded Q plate.
3. Assuming the above to be correct, is therefore the vehicle identifier (the chassis in other vehicles) the fiberglass hub and if that is changed then the DVLA should be notified and a q plate issued
4. If 3 is not correct then how much of the vehicle can be replaced before a q plate would be issued.
5. In short what part of the vehicle carries the identity and the number plate?
I know I have taken a simplistic approach but with various parts being advertised, some with number plate and log book attached, I am curious as to opinions as to how legally correct they would be if checked by the authorities. Cheers Neal
IF EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE GOING WELL, YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY OVERLOOKED
SOMETHING.
Apx
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 137
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Barnstaple Devon UK

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:51 pm

This is a subject that has been covered in depth in the past.

In a nutshell an Elan's identity stays with its fibreglass body & the identity plate with the relevant numbers inscribed is generally attached to it on the passenger foot well in the engine bay.

The so-called "chassis" is preferably referred to as a sub-frame which due to rust is commonly replaced without effecting the integrity of the vehicle

Hope I got all of that right?

Cheers
John

P.S. It may be more discreet not to discuss your other questions on an "open forum"
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: AHM » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:22 pm

A good answer Grumpers, and I agree that we should have a private area to discuss such topics.

Neal,

The answer above is nice and concise. Beyond that it is extremely subjective, so ask 10 people and you will get 10 answers. If you do not know what you are doing and approach the DVLA you can easily get yourself a Q plate and a proper mess!

The answer to your question in each case is Correct! except for 3 which is both correct and incorrect and you have a misunderstanding of the need for a Q plate. Consider 2 cars - Car 1 has had a hard life and has been raced, crashed, and rebuilt several times - car 2 has been built up from the original parts from car 1.

The DVLA work on the principal of continuity so car 1 maintains its registration and car 2 is not entitled to it. But neither does car 2 have to have a Q plate.

The DVLA also have the system of points, where points are awarded for major components - Read about this on their website. Here again it is easy to talk yourself into a Q plate if you want one!

The sale of vehicle identities is of questionable legality, and they appear to be overpriced - why not buy a car with the expensive parts attached and none of the hassle.

If you are a member of Club Lotus give Alan Morgan a call.
AHM
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: 19 Apr 2004

PostPost by: timax » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:35 am

As a future owner/tyre kicker whatever you want to call me , i think it would be a shame to move these conversations to a private area. This is how we/I learn. I understand there will be many very strong opinions on whats right or wrong but im afraid with the Elan thats always going to be the way it is. Thank god im not in the market for a 26R! :roll: An Elan is always going to be a "Grandpa's Axe"
Tim
timax
New-tral
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 09 Apr 2012

PostPost by: peterexpart » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:08 pm

Or Triggers Broom !!
PeterExpart
New Forest National Park
Hampshire UK
peterexpart
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 223
Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Location: New Forest Hampshire UK

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:20 pm

timax wrote:As a future owner/tyre kicker whatever you want to call me , i think it would be a shame to move these conversations to a private area. This is how we/I learn. I understand there will be many very strong opinions on whats right or wrong but im afraid with the Elan thats always going to be the way it is. Thank god im not in the market for a 26R! :roll: An Elan is always going to be a "Grandpa's Axe"
Tim



In a way you are quite correct & I am not advocating secrecy amongst ourselves but am recommending care when discussing this stuff. After all who knows what suits with ties maybe tuned in? Big brother & all that; that's all.
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: Bud English » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:55 pm

A private area???? :shock: There is no such place. Don't worry though I don't think the NSA is sharing with the the DVLA or the DMV.

...yet. :twisted:
Bud
1970 +2S Fed
"Every Lotus that an owner modifies makes yours worth that much more." - You're welcome!
User avatar
Bud English
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 925
Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Location: Winnemucca, NV, USA

PostPost by: Etienne 7 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:00 pm

Do not ask any question, do your chassis change and basta !

Cheers,

Etienne (who is in the same situation and who should be getting his car back in a month-time!!!)
User avatar
Etienne 7
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPost by: gherlt » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:41 pm

In Switzerland the same question was asked. Although the "plate on the fibre glass body" answer is the correct one, to be sure that every engineer finds what he thinks he must find, it was suggested to stamp (emboss) the complete chassis number into the chassis, at an obvious, easy to find location (front cross member ?).
1964 S1 (engine ready, awainting body paint)
1967 S3 DHC (now adjusted by Brian Buckland, totally calm idle)
1969 S4 FHC (final interior stuff)
gherlt
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 485
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Location: Weiden (DE) & Tarragona (ES)

PostPost by: AHM » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:08 pm

Tim,

So let me get that straight because someone who is not interested enough to join wants to kick tyres, Grumpers and I or any other member cannot participate in an honest and open discussion. The poster gets half a vague answer and you haven't learnt much.

You joined, anyone else can join - where is the detriment of having a members area?
AHM
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: 19 Apr 2004

PostPost by: timax » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:02 am

Im sorry AHM , i thought the idea was to have the discussion off the Forum .
I understand now what your saying.
I find at times on other forums where an interesting question is asked the question is answered via a PM not helping the other forum members.
Tim
timax
New-tral
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 09 Apr 2012

PostPost by: AHM » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:34 pm

Tim, Hopefully having just a small part of the forum accessible only to members would encourage more open discussion on a few subjects, and result in less PM's

gherlt wrote:it was suggested to stamp (emboss) the complete chassis number into the chassis, at an obvious, easy to find location (front cross member ?).


Gherlt, that sounds like a simple and logical solution doesn't it! Stamping chassis numbers is an activity that criminals use - I wouldn't like to have to explain it to a Policeman or a future owner. Ignorance on the part of the authorities, is not for me anyway, a reason to indulge in fraud. Moreover, it is likely to call into question the identity of the rest of the vehicle.
AHM
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: 19 Apr 2004

PostPost by: casalunge » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:13 pm

Back to the original questions posed in this thread.

I think it is important to look outside the classic car World that is Lotus Elan.

How often do you see a 40 - 50 year old car running around on a Q plate? Exactly. From MG Midgets to E- type Jags there is a host of companies providing body shells and chassis. On many of these cars the only original item is the buff log book.

Conversely when an "original" matching numbers car materialises it invariably commands a higher price, they are so few and far between, more common being the re shelled, re chassises example.

Do not lose sight of what the DVLA is, it is a licensing authority that gathers revenue for HM's Government, it is not interested or knowledgeable about the provenance of classic cars. However if you ask them questions about which they don't know the answer they will find an answer though likely not the one you want. If you don't want to hear the answer NO don't ask the question.

There have been a couple of suggestions that such sensitive matters surrounding vehicle identity be discussed behind closed doors - and on an open forum for all to see!!. Be in no doubt those charged with investigating such matters are fully aware of the practices, its not rocket science and no one is kidding anybody.

To the issue of Chassis Plates and Log Books being advertised it is not unlawful to sell or buy, it depends what you do with them, perhaps more relevant is where is the rest of the car? What happened to it? Has it been cloned?.Its been separated from the original car for a reason.

On the subject of testing your understanding of Lotus Elan identity I would be interested if you can answer the following:

Where did all the Christopher Neil Sprint DHC conversions go?

Why do so many Lotus from the 60's come to the market without an original VIN plate or with a replica plate?
1960 Lotus 18 FJ
1962 Lotus 22 FJ
casalunge
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 229
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Location: Halnaker, West Sussex UK OR Volterra,Tuscany.Italy

PostPost by: Spyder fan » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:53 pm

This page on the DVLA website gives clear concise coverage of the retention of an original registration number regarding what they term as radically altered cars. Basically they award points for originality and you need 8 points to avoid a Q plate. Note that the original body monocoque or body chassis/frame assembly attracts 5 points, also note the asterisk that refers to a statement at the foot of the points chart clearly indicating that a new manufacturers replacement part is acceptable.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles

To me this means without question that you can replace your chassis / frame with a new one and that there is no need to inform the DVLA.

This subject comes up from time to time and as mentioned by AHM you will get many varied and perhaps conflicting replies. There are a few grey areas regarding the DVLA that perhaps do require a private discussion amongst knowledgeable owners with the intention of petitioning Club Lotus to present a clear outline regarding acceptable changes or modifications, but Alan Morgan at Club Lotus will always help out with DVLA problems and it's surprising what is acceptable once the facts are presented clearly and the correct forms or registration procedures are followed.

It should be noted that the DVLA refers to Club Lotus as a recognised authority.
Kindest regards

Alan Thomas
User avatar
Spyder fan
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2534
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Location: Kent country & Sussex seaside UK

PostPost by: twincamman » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:37 am

APX .......be very careful here on this site .there are some who delight in maliciousness. I came here pleased with a garage find 26R only to be accused of "chalking my own numbers on the car and out right lies " :shock: .....some people are great but some not so much BEWARE ...Ed
dont close your eyes --you will miss the crash
User avatar
twincamman
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2953
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Location: Niagara falls [slowly I turned]
Next

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests