S4 Coupe valuation

[Chancer]

Hello, my first posting on this forum.



I have a 71 (maybe 72) S4 coup? that I have had in storage for many years awaiting when i would have the time to do a full restoration, it is currently with me in Northern France where I have been living and working for the last 7 years but I could easily transport it to my garage in the UK.

The place where it is being stored has been put up for sale and whilst there is no rush I am considering selling the vehicle rather than have to find another storage facility which may not prove to be so secure as the present one. She really does deserve to be restored rather than wait what will certainly be at least another few years for myself.

I will try to post the only photo that I have which was taken a couple of years ago when I transported her to France, I will take many more in a couple of weekends when I collect her from storage. She is original and unmolested and was running perfectly correctly when put into storage, that said she was not MOT'd and hence road legal.

The engine is the Stromberg carb'ed one but i do have a full spare Weber engine, i will start a seperate thread for a valuation for that.

Its hard to describe the condition, the chassis had had a couple of small patches mig welded on beside the front lower wishbone for an MOT before my ownership, I had considered the chassis to be restorable but these repairs would need to be cut out and done properly with a flush butt weld or of course the restorer may decide to fit a new chassis, here in France the preference would be to retain the original. The front cross member vacuum reservoir was perforated but i do have full dimensioned chassis drawings in an original factory workshop manual. from memory the headlamp actuators were also rusted through.

Uner the bonnet she was all original and intact with the exception that the original airbox had been replaced with pancake filters, she ran faultlessly with good oil pressure, clutch and transmission were all fine, I cannot recall the mileage but think it was around the 60K mark.

The interior is very very good with just a small easily repairable split in the drivers seat squab seam, headlining was good, carpets will need replacing in the floorwells. The dashboard was unmarked but i think an that one extra guage had been fitted although it looks symettrical as if it should always have been there. Thankfully it has not been butchered to fit a stereo, there is a period cassette player and also an 8 track stereo player fitted in a sort of carpetted box on the rear bulkhead but no trim has been cut or drilled, it just sits there.

The fuel tank was perforated and I had temporarily patched it by brazing plates alongside the seam, it will need the end plate replacing or a new tank. There is a stainless exhaust fitted.

The bodywork is in really good shape, what looks to be stress cracking is in most cases paint cracks where there are so many coats of paint where vehicle had been resprayed so many times in the 70's.

Thats all I can think of for the moment although doubtless I have missed something important, she looked to be in good shape when I checked her out a couple of weeks ago, once I get her back to my place (Picardie, Northern France) I intend to get her fired up and moving under her own steam.

So to my question, what is she likely to be worth? I read with interest a couple of other threads re Elan values, when I brough her to France in 2005 Elans were worth a lot more here than in the UK although the pound was stronger, there was a lot of interest from Belgians for historic racing.

[elansprint71]

Welcome aboard.
Impossible to say with any certainty what it is worth. Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

It sounds like it needs a new chassis and fuel tank plus a full rub-down and re-spray... we are already talking over 8k for that to be done properly. Of course whoever buys it might be a bodger and just patch it up.

Very important to get it on a SORN as soon as it is back in the UK, probably no need to tell the DVLA that it has been out of the country, unless you already have.

Good luck.

[Chancer]

SORN not a problem thankfully as it had not been taxed or on the road for at least a decade before the SORN regs came in, i think how it works/worked is that a vehicle had to become untaxed (and not sorned) for the system to send out the fine.

SORN is enough grief for me for my Caterham laid up in the UK garage without having to fart about with what is effectively a museum piece.

I hope the 8K you were talking about was for a cheque book restorer, i.e. parts and labour + extortion, how much is a replacement chassis?

Unless the chasss has further deteriorated which is unlikely it was perfectly repairable by a competent fabricator/welder (me!) and the repairs would be neither visible nor weaken the structure, my concern would have been the lack of rigidity elsewhere in the cruciform after shotblasting, as I intended racing the vehicle I may have considered a new chassis.

I was beginning to think by the lack of replies that I had breached etiquette or something so am pleased to get at least one reply, surely someone on here must be able to hazard a guess, I have read lots of peoples comments about the values of other cars on E-bay, you guys have had your eye on the market all these years whilst I have been occupied elsewhere, any contributions will be welcomed.

What about the value of a very good dry stored twink engine (weber head) with all ancillaries?

[elansprint71]

Seeing as no-one else is talking to us... I would think you could achieve ?8-9k for this car as it stands. However, I'm talking about a purchase by someone who knows what is involved to make it "right", not some first-time fan-boy on Pistonheads. You might get lucky on there and get a few grand more.

Chassis with all the bits required is going to cost about ?2k to purchase and then you have to fit it. A proper paint job will be ?6k at Option 1, or similar. Ally fuel tank is about ?400.

The Elan community does not (rightly) look favourably on welded chassis repairs to something which cost ?15 in the first place; I have a Lloyd's Register of Shipping welding certificate and would not even think of using any tool other than a hacksaw on an old chassis. Personally I would not consider anything other than Spyder chassis but hey, I'm an Engineer, so what do I know?

Do you really need to sell this car; it's better than money in the bank if you can hang on. If I had more space I'd give you my address and a suitable cheque.

[Chancer]

No I dont really need to sell it and have already changed my mind several times, its just a shame for her to remain unused, having seen the prices some spares go for like rear lights and having read that the rear screens are now unavailable there is a certain risk to keeping it as an investment.

Thanks for the idea on price, my gut feeling was somewhere in that area, out of interest how much more would a similar project but non S4, non Stromberg and non coup? (i.e. cabriolet) be worth, or are they all just so thin on the ground to be of equal value?

I certainly never bought it as an investment but the money that I put into pension funds and shares at the same time is still at about 60 to 70% of the sum invested, the Elan at least has tripled.

Are values really going to keep going up do you think? Given the sort of prices that you quote like 6K for a refinish it can no longer be the cheque book restorers pushing up the values.

[Chancer]

By the way we are in agreement re the chassis, I am an engineer also, its just that being out here so long my values have kind of changed.

I sourced a Marcos for a friend, all of the parts and did the mechanical restoration for/with him, I would not have been happy with the chassis especially when it came back from the shotblasters looking like a new pin, or rather as thin as a new pin but no-one seems to give a rats or they simply dont understand.

The bodges he did to the bodywork really made me cry, the rear 1/4 of the body had cracked away from the bottom corner of the rear screen with the chassis flexing and he just slapped some P40 behind the fractures and some P38 on top, it was shiny when painted but the gloss just showed up all the awfull bodges underneath, exactly as I had warned him, he thought it looked great, and it shows how little I know, so did everyone else, it won several concours and he sold it for really big money. If it were an Elan you would have been appalled by it and valued it at less than an honest basket case.

It was the low standards of restored cars over here that made me bring it out in the first place, the chassis and bodywork being the deciding factors moneywise. Also Stromberg cars are not looked down on, is that still the case in the UK?

Maybe I will stick to my original plan if I can find another more secure long term storage for it.

Any other punts at a valuation, also the spare engine?

[adigra]

I agree with Pete regarding the value. A few months ago I would've said a car in need of a chassis would be worth a lot less, but seeing what some total basket cases are going for, I don't think there is such a thing as a cheap Elan any more. So yes, ?8-10k sounds about right.

As for the engine: the best, rebuilt, tuned road engine I saw recently was about ?5000. Ones in need of a rebuild, but without serious damage, seem to be around ?1500-2000. I'd say that a good condition, standard, Weber engine would be around ?3000, but only if it needs nothing. An engine rebuild is around ?3-4k, depending on what's needed, so for a private buyer it's only worth buying either the best or the worst, anything in the middle doesn't make much sense unless they can do their own engine work.

Regards,
Adi

[adigra]

And to answer your question regarding coupe vs. drophead values, I think there is still a couple of grand between them, especially for the S4, although some top examples of the coupe I've seen recently have been priced equally. It seems that the best cars are evening out while the project DHC still command a premium. Unfortunately you have the least desirable combination, an S4 coupe with Strombergs. It's by no means a lesser car, but seems to be lagging behind the other versions.

[Spyder fan]

I agree 8-10k value for this car certainly not less and maybe a little more, "chequebook" rebuild will be 30k. A more enthusiast hands on and hands get dirty sort of approach would see the restoration done for between 15-20k depending on how far you want to go with it. The important thing is that it's all there and the most annoyingly expensive and difficult to obtain items like the interior are in good order, stromberg headed engines make good drivers and generally cause less trouble due to the fact you can't tweak and fiddle with them as much as webers so less margin for enthusiastic error.

As a point of interest Spyder will restore an existing Lotus chassis for ?951 + VAT which is a considerable saving over a new item, their description as follows:

Original Lotus stressed skin chassis fully shotblasted and alignment checked. Fitted with a new engine bay complete with engine mounting brackets and anti roll bar pickups. A new front suspension bulkhead with wishbone spindles and closing plates fitted to the front towers, steering rack mounting brackets, vacuum take off and towing eye. The service exchange chassis is primed and stove enameled and carries a six year anti corrosion guarantee.

They mention service exchange, but your original chassis can be given the treatment for a semblance of originality if required.

Kindest regards

[Chancer]

Unfortunately you have the least desirable combination, an S4 coupe with Strombergs. It's by no means a lesser car, but seems to be lagging behind the other versions.

Twas always the case, I was well aware of that when I bought her, the reason that I asked the question was that I had suspected that the gap had closed up with the now relative rarity of all Elans, your replies seem to bear this out.

One thing that confuses me are the replies such as "engine rebuild 3-4K" "bodywork 6K", I dont doubt that is what it costs these days to have this work done but do restorers now sub out all work to specialists these days?

If so could that be what has pushed up the prices so much? People who dont really have or need to sell (not like replacing the daily runabout) and who say, it cost me this much, i paid this much for the chassis, engine, bodywork so I wont let her go for less than X thousand.

I ask as it does seem to be that the suggested valuations, which I do believe and accept, seem to be explained/justified by the inverse of tha above logic, - final value less cost of parts and work done by professionals = value of restoration project.

I am not having a pop at all just seeking to understand, do top value cars have to have a certain provenance, engine by so and so, bodywork by so and so etc? i do understand the value of a Spyder chassis over an original though, welded or otherwise.

I always built my own race engines through X flow, Zetec and latterly motorcycle engines, it was through necessity (being poor) and also I enjoyed the challenge equally to the racing, I recall at the time in Caterham circles that some engine builders enjoyed a certain cachet and would charge a fortune for a pretty mediocre assembly job and cars were sold at elevated prices because of the percieved added value of their name.

I struggle to see how 3-4k for an engine rebuild to standard or mildly tuned spec can be justified unless it involves a new head casting or have parts really increased so much in price since I have been out of the game?

[Spyder fan]

Chancer, (edited sorry Adi )
The Lotus twin cam is no more complicated than a modern engine that goes in your hatchback, the problem appears to be that modern engines very seldom require rebuilding therefore the economies of scale mean that there are only a few specialists in the business of rebuilding engines. Parts for the twincam are highly priced again due to the economies of scale. The few specialist machiners who work on the twincams have inneficient business models, perhaps a busy specialist will build or rebuild 5 to 10 engines a month, perhaps they have 3 or 4 employees meaning the labour alone without parts and other overheads and profit will cost him between ?500 - ?1000 per engine (average salary ?15k) add ?1000 - ?1500 of parts for a standard engine add overheads for premises then add some profit and it's easy to get to ?4k for an engine rebuild.

An estimated average of 120 hours preparation goes into an Option 1 paint job, use similar maths to above.

It makes your hair curl doesn't it..........

As the cars get older and the owners too, they become an indulgence and are priced or valued accordingly. There are lots of people like me who lusted after a particular car in the 60's and 70's but couldn't afford it who now find themselves in the happy position of achieving ownership due to gray hairs and hard work mostly

Your car appears to need some necessary chassis work or replacement and all the safety related items need refurbishing or replacement, engine wise a full rebuild would be a sound investment, how is the gearbox and the diff? I know lots of people who say they don't mind their cars paint being only 75% perfect, but they are liars. Interiors can be quite classy if they are a little lived in, maybe a set of carpets and a repair to that seat would do the job. Doing it yourself and subbing out the paint and engine machining it's still 15-20k whichever way you look at it.

Kindest Regards

Alan

[Chancer]

Shows how much things have changed doesnt it!

I used to pay ?9 for Vendervell VP (the higher rated ones) narrow journal big end bearings, I think main bearings were ?22 which seemed pretty extortionate at the time, my recollections are a bit hazy, rings were perhaps ?30 a set of flat top hepolite pistons were ?100 with powermax ones being up to ?300 depending on the oversize and scarcity. gasket sets cant really recall, say ?20 for a headset and ?12 for a conversion set, of course even then the twink would have been more but not a multiple of price.

There was an reboring/crank grinding shop just 100 metres from my house again I cant rely on my memory but it was of the order of ?2.50 per journal/bore, had to be as when parts were in abundance it was often cheaper to buy a new crank and cheaper standard bearings.

These days we would have to count on replacement valves guides and seat for unleaded fuels which by my reckoning would make the cylinder head the most expensive item especially if it needs waterways repairing, twas ever so.

I still have enough bits left over to build a really hairy engine, steel cranks, 85.6 bore forged pistons etc but would not really want to do that to a twin cam with a standard block nor spoil the originality of the car, it would be reliability and driveability my first concern and in that respect i think the twink in standard tune especially on strombergs is hard to better.

Interestingly the last time I had any contact with the Elan scene some owners were repalacing all tne running gear with modern, fuel injected Zetecs, MT75 gearboxes, sierra diffs, driveshafts and hubs etc, I thought that it was scandalous and an insult to the memory of Chapman, the gearbox and diffs are like boat anchors compared to the originals, to be fair it was more the then unwanted + 2's that were being despoiled in this way, I guess the sale of the removed running gear financed a great part of the rebuild.

How are these bastardised cars viewed these days?

Another question as I am being tempted to go back to my original plan of sitting on the car before I restore it and wont be paying out the big sums quoted for specialists to do the body and engine, were the vehicle to be rebuilt to a very good standard, perfect running order, no faults to be found but not the provenance of chassis by X, bodywork by Y, engine by Z, what would be the minimum value it could fetch in todays market either on Webers or Strombergs?

[Spyder fan]

how are these bastardised cars viewed today?

Chancer,
Both my +2 and my S4 have unconventional means of propulsion zetec in the +2 and Duratec in the S4. Most people dislike the concept but approve of the end result. The S4 is the only known road car to have a Duratec so at least it has some unique interest. If you drove my +2 without knowing what it had under the skin you would notice very little difference until you gave it some welly or stamped on the brakes. It looks and sounds like an original, but it goes like a modern. The S4 is just bonkers to drive, very little on the road can touch it, 180bhp and 170ft torque make it properly quick and Cosworth discs with Willwoods make it stop. Looks totally standard apart from the roll bar.

Best ask others what they really think of them.

Value of your car assuming good quality restoration 35k.

Kindest regards

Alan

[Chancer]

The Duratec I really approve of although I have never had my hands on one, its just a shame that a 2000E, bullit or rocket box isnt up to the job, nor an Anglia diff or rotoflex couplings, although i would love to find out that these days solutions have been found.

The weight of these components to which I must add the pre X/flow block compared to the power than can withstand/produce just doesnt seem to be matched anywhere in modern vehical engineering despite finite element analysis and all the materials and production improvements through the ages.

What transmission and running gear do you have on these awesome cars?

[Elanintheforest]

The 2000E box and the old Anglia diff are pretty tough bits of kit. My BDA Plus 2 is making a fairly modest 170bhp, with standard everything else. It has lasted 40 years and over 70,000 miles with that setup so far. Mind you, with the standard wheels and tyres, the wheel spin does act as a secondary clutch, so reducing the strain on the drive train.

I've just had a BDG built which should put out around 200 - 220 bhp in a fairly mild state of tune, and that is going into an otherwise standard S4 convertible. That locks the wheels up quite easily, so I can't see that putting bigger brakes on is going to make any difference, unless I go for big wheels and tyres, arches and all the rest of the bits.

Both cars are only used on the road, so with 0 - 60 being a bit quicker, and 60 - 0 being exactly the same as a standard Elan, it should be fine!

I wouldn't part with your S4 Coupe for under ?10k. A few gel coat cracks / paint cracks are fine and, to me, don't warrant having the car painted. At least you can take it down the pub and not worry about getting it scratched!!

Mark