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Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:07 am
by dlbutler
No oil in the cylinder head...newly rebuilt...

The front jackshaft bearing has two holes in it (if it is the correct one!). If they are not lined up correctly no oil will go to the head.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:54 pm
by Elan45
Tony,

I don't have many spares here in Florida, so I can't look at a head gasket, but I think it could be put on backwards so as to close off the oil passage fed from the aforementioned cam bearing, through drillings in the head to the cam bearings. It would be a simple check to pull the head to check for oil pressure at the head face of the block. Even with only 2 miles with no oil pressure, there may be some damage to valve stems, guides, tappets and cams. So, time to remove the head. This may easily be the reason for low compression too.

I'll have to re-read Doug's symptoms. Doug, you can PM me, if you wish. We will be doing spring migration coming up I-77 if you'd like me to stop and scratch my head in person. I'd love to see you unload your camera from the boot of your Elan at LOG.

Roger

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:17 pm
by dlbutler
It's possible to put the head gasket on backwards (the bolt pattern is symmetrical), but extremely obvious due to the holes that line up with the push rod holes in the block. The outer edge of the gasket would not follow the block as well. An easy check is to see if the gasket and block match. If the front jackshaft bearing is not lined up properly it would not be the first I've heard of. :(

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:35 pm
by types26/36
I don't think it is possible, the front bolt hole (with oil feed) is not in line with the others.
I just went and tried it and there is no way I can get ALL the head bolt holes to line up with the gasket holes except for the correct way, I tried upside down, back to front and every way I could.....all bolt holes would just not line up.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:43 pm
by tvacc
I agree that it would be hard to make the mistake on the head gasket. I dont recall how easy it is to make that mistake and according to the previous post, the holes really dont line up right. My only other thought is that they used the wrong head gasket all together.

So we are probably looking at the cam bearing being in wrong. Is there any possiblitiy that it could be a bad oil pump? I could just get the gauge to move a bit when cranking it. Not much...just enough to see it move.

Looks like we pull the motor this week. Waiting for tires to come in as the car will not roll on the flat tires. They are so rotted (they are retreads) that the tread is coming off the carcass. Only holds air for a few minutes. It will be easier to pull the motor with the good tires on the car.

How would you guys proceed from this point as far as the order. What would you check and how would you check it? I have a pretty good idea. I will pull the motor, dont see any reationale in just pulling the head. I had Marvel Mystery oil in all four cylinders and it stayed in 1,2,and 3, but dissappeared over night in #4. So there is probably something wrong with #4.

Plus at this point you would probably want to check the rods and mains at this point.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:11 pm
by oldelanman
Tony,
Whatever else you decide to do I would strongly recommend that you check the oil pump pressure relief valve plunger to make sure it's not corroded. (See my earlier post) If it's sticking in the bore it could cause either a lack of or excessive oil pressure. My car was laid up for a long time and the plunger corroded despite the fact that the engine was stored with oil and was turned over - although not started - periodically so it's worth checking while you have the engine out. It's a real bugger to get the pump out with the engine in the car !

Good luck with it.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:29 pm
by tvacc
Will do....I could only get about 5 lbs. pressure to show up when I cranked it....so that may be an issue.

oldelanman wrote:Tony,
Whatever else you decide to do I would strongly recommend that you check the oil pump pressure relief valve plunger to make sure it's not corroded. (See my earlier post) If it's sticking in the bore it could cause either a lack of or excessive oil pressure. My car was laid up for a long time and the plunger corroded despite the fact that the engine was stored with oil and was turned over - although not started - periodically so it's worth checking while you have the engine out. It's a real bugger to get the pump out with the engine in the car !

Good luck with it.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:05 pm
by memini55
Well Tony if it was my motor and as you say had only 5 lbs pressure on crank with no plugs in place and spinning freely well it would be a tear down. I know you said it was rebuild and run before storage but maybe it was run with no oil pressure and damage done, maybe not. It does not take long to hurt the internals with no oil running around the system.
No oil in the head can mean bad news.

On all the motors I build the motor is put together with assembly lube in large amounts. Then before it is even attempted to start I have an external oil pressure tank which I pump at 60 psi back thru the oil gauge fitting until I have oil in the head galley's. If you can locate one to try you might give that a try as you might have a small blockage in an oil passage.

The mystery oil running out of number 4 could be stuck rings or if not careful on assembly the rings maybe all aligned to leak at the ends. If the rings are stuck chances are good once it has started and run a few heat cycles they may come loose and that is not a show stopper.

It is really tough to sort out a motor that someone else rebuilt as that can mean different things to different people. If you had oil through the motor I would continue to get it running and see what I had, but with no oil up top start with the head pulled.

I have seen rebuilt motors that have just been pulled apart and new rings and bearings tossed in, oh yes new gaskets.
Makes you wonder sometimes.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:30 pm
by tvacc
Yes, I agree with the previous post. I think I have to pull it at this point. Even to just check it out.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:15 pm
Tony, rebuilt by who ? We never pay anymore for a used Twin Cam because it was "rebuilt" unless we know who and know that we trust that who. Most "rebuilds" I've run across are in need of corrective action for all the usual reasons like sloppy guide fit, terrible valve jobs,worn ring lands in cast pistons (and the inevitable broken top ring), suspect bearing clearances, dirt in the assembly, incorrect fasteners etc.. Yours sounds like a very typical case of needing everything taken apart and corrected. Don't forget to clean all the silicone goop off of everything.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:08 pm
by tvacc
Thanks Jeff.

Will let you know what I find. Will need some parts for sure.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:44 am
by Elan45
Tony,

I agree wholly that it needs to come apart completely just for your peace of mind.

I've got a long term engine I need to pull apart. I pulled the pan fore I bought it 20 years ago and found the well respected local rebuilder had used spring lock-washers on the rod bolts. I guess I'm getting cynical in my old age.

Roger

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:10 am
by StressCraxx
It can happen to anyone.

"Tales from the Shop"
Rich Kamp was contracted to install a freshly Pro-rebuilt engine in a customer's Elan. Since it was a known pro builder, he installed the engine, connected everything, put oil and coolant in it and started it up. All was good. He went through his normal monitoring and a easy drive round the block. He went round a corner, hear a clunk and the engine stopped. Starter spun when he tried to restart.

He had the car towed back to the shop, and called the owner and the engine builder. After some negotiation, the owner and rebuild shop owner agreed to let Rich remove the engine and remove the pan.

The crank was broken between 3 and 4. All of the main caps were loose. The rebuild shop paid for all of the required repairs.

A rebuilt motor is no better than the people on that day who did the machine work and the assembly. Anyone can make a mistake, some by hurry or inattention, some by ignorance.

Regards,
Dan Wise

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:04 am
by tvacc
]Ok all,

Pulled the motor today and took it apart. The front bearing appears to be in right. But one of the holes is about 30% blocked. Here are some pictures, what do you guys think. If this is not the issue than perhaps it is the oil pump. I can tell you when I pulled the oil pump, it was dry in one of the chambers. The chamber to the bottom right.
Either way, the motor still had to come out. I will replace all the brearings. I will have the rings and pistons checked by a garage. I really dont know how to check those. I do know that when I had pentrating oil sitting in 1,2,3 and 4, all but 4 held the oil over night. #4 was empty.

Well let me know what you all think.

Gosh. I am a computer guy and I cannot figure out how to insert photos.....I will put them up on http://www.lotusowners.com

Here is the link http://www.lotusowners.com/69ElanBearing.html

For the future, could some one tell me how to insert photos into this fourm. When I hit the Img....all I get it [img] or something like that.

Re: Elan Issues

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:39 am
by gjz30075
Tony, no need to link to a hosting pic site. You can upload your pictures directing to this site. When replying, scroll down slightly to see 'upload attachment'. Go browse for you pic (sitting somewhere on your computer), then 'add file'. There is a size limit, but if you exceed it, it'll tell you to resize.

Greg Z