Lotus Elan

Robinshaw and Ross

PostPost by: Etienne 7 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:59 pm

Hello all,

The book from Lotus-Book.com is a photocopy. It is nicely bound but a photocopy (colour coft cover).

This type of books (glued binding, soft cover and photocopy) is more and more common for these now rare and coveted editions. I have a similar version for Tony Weale's Lotus Seven - Restoration/Preparation/Maintenance (got it from Red Line components - a very nice book to work with on your Lotus Seven or early Caterham).

Good reading!

Etienne
User avatar
Etienne 7
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 88
Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPost by: elanfan1 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:48 pm

I seem to recall talking to Miles Wilkins about his book that this chap was selling and he was livid about it. It seems that the copy of his book is unauthorised - he seemed determined at the time to have something done about it.

From this it seems likely that the Robinshaw and Ross might be unauthorised too - I think Paul visits this site from time to time so it would be good to get his take on the matter.

Whilst I can see the attraction of buying these books cheaply it is wrong if the originators are not getting their share of the royalty and profits. Let's not forget these are fellow Lotus owners that have taken the time (and don't forget risk) to put their knowledge into print for the benefit of us all and they should be fully deserving of our support (by us not buying the copies if they are not getting the correct share of the cover price). The sale of illicit copies may put the originators off doing a reprint or an update of their work.


Steve (apart from being on chatting terms with both Paul and Miles - no other connection).
Steve

Silence is Guildern; Duct Tape is Silver
User avatar
elanfan1
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Location: Cardiff in Welsh Wales

PostPost by: nebogipfel » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:02 am

elanfan1 wrote:I seem to recall talking to Miles Wilkins about his book that this chap was selling and he was livid about it. It seems that the copy of his book is unauthorised - he seemed determined at the time to have something done about it.

From this it seems likely that the Robinshaw and Ross might be unauthorised too - I think Paul visits this site from time to time so it would be good to get his take on the matter.

Whilst I can see the attraction of buying these books cheaply it is wrong if the originators are not getting their share of the royalty and profits. Let's not forget these are fellow Lotus owners that have taken the time (and don't forget risk) to put their knowledge into print for the benefit of us all and they should be fully deserving of our support (by us not buying the copies if they are not getting the correct share of the cover price). The sale of illicit copies may put the originators off doing a reprint or an update of their work.


Steve (apart from being on chatting terms with both Paul and Miles - no other connection).


Steve, I agree with your viewpoint totally and do think the authors should benefit from sales. The problem is that the books are now realising frankly ridiculous secondhand prices (from which the authors receive nothing) and are very unlikely to be reprinted through the original publishers so those of us with limited funds are faced with a difficult choice....
John

No longer active on here, I value my privacy.
User avatar
nebogipfel
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: Norfolk UK

PostPost by: billwill » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:25 pm

It all depends on the original contracts of course, but if the Author sold only "First Publication Rights" then he/she retains the rights for subsequent re-publication, or could buy them back from the first publisher.

It would then be possible to engage one of the print-on-demand firms to continue publication of the book.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&h ... 53&bih=536

http://www.lulu.com/

If they don't do anything at all, there's not much point in complaining about what copy pirates are up to.




PS: I would not be surprised if a print-on-demand book looks a bit like a photocopy, so perhaps some of the ones spoken of above are just that.
Bill Williams

36/6725 S3 Coupe OGU108E Yellow over Black.
billwill
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4715
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: London UK

PostPost by: billwill » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:33 pm

I see nothing on the website at http://lotus-books.com/general.html to indicate that they actually have the right to re-print any of these books, but the right to resell existing copies would exist of course.
Bill Williams

36/6725 S3 Coupe OGU108E Yellow over Black.
billwill
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4715
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: London UK

PostPost by: vernon.taylor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:47 pm

Salut

Received my book today and I'm not happy - angry, in fact. I'm demanding my money back.

The site description suggests an original book, and 40? is a fair price for a second edition, even if some people will pay ?150 for a first edition. Other items are marked as reprints, this is not.

The reproduction quality isn't great. Text quality is fine - you'd need to use an old-fashioned spirit-copier to mess that up. The photos have been copied with a B/W setting, not greyscale, so one can forget about details unless the original art was high contrast itself.

Worth not more than 15? - and that's if you're willing to turn a blind eye to piracy. It would be more ethical to ask somone you knew to make a copy at cost - at least that way one wouldn't be actively supporting an illegal activity.

Real shame - content looks interesting.

@+

Vernon
User avatar
vernon.taylor
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 927
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Vaugneray, France

PostPost by: nebogipfel » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:12 pm

vernon.taylor wrote:Real shame - content looks interesting.



Thanks for the info' Vernon, sorry to hear you are not happy with the book.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill,
There's no reason why print on demand books need to be poor quality. I have recently bought such a book (not a Lotus book) from an author and the quality of text and illustrations, while perhaps not of top quality is perfectly acceptable.

That said, this book was not an illegal copy and was ?12 not approaching ?40!
John

No longer active on here, I value my privacy.
User avatar
nebogipfel
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: Norfolk UK

PostPost by: elanfan1 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:52 pm

I have just spoken to Paul Robinshaw he was aware these books were being copied a few years back and it is fair to say he is not happy with the situation. No permission has been granted and they are infact illegal copies.

Paul has admitted it would be difficult for him to do anything about it as having the resources to get legal on a foreign company would probably be cost prohibitive.

As I said - I do appreciate the attraction of buying these books because of the collector value of the originals. I guess what would be an ideal scenario would be for the originator to offer a royalty to the authors and to be clear with customers that these books are not as original. Unfortunately this is too much to expect!!

I guess that the publishers could bow to customer pressure if enough of us were to write requesting they sort out an agreement with the authors. Hopefully they would then sell more books too.
Steve

Silence is Guildern; Duct Tape is Silver
User avatar
elanfan1
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Location: Cardiff in Welsh Wales

PostPost by: elansprint71 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:58 pm

It says in my 1989 copy:
All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise, without the prior permission of Motor Racing Publications Ltd.

That wording is pretty clear and I would have thought that MRP Ltd would be the the people to pursue this, rather than the authors. Notwithstanding the fact that the book is out of print, I suspect that as part of the original deal MRP would be bound to undertake some action against anyone who breaches copyright. Of course, I'm usually wrong. :(
elansprint71
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4092
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Location: Cheshire, UK.

PostPost by: vernon.taylor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:23 pm

Salut and update

Bruce reimbursed me with just enough to send the book back with the cheapest and slowest mail option - PayPal took a cut which I'm not going to fill.

I also called MRP - the guy to speak to, John, was away for the day. I'll call him tomorrow morning.

Now guys, what would you do - send the book back? Keep it as evidence ;-)

@+

Vernon
User avatar
vernon.taylor
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 927
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Vaugneray, France

PostPost by: nebogipfel » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:08 pm

elanfan1 wrote:I have just spoken to Paul Robinshaw he was aware these books were being copied a few years back and it is fair to say he is not happy with the situation. No permission has been granted and they are infact illegal copies.


The best and most satisfying solution to this problem (certainly from the point of view of "Robinshaw and Ross") would be to persuade Paul that now is the time for a new expanded and revised 3rd edition. Not only would we have the opportunity to buy a genuine copy at a reasonable price, but the authors/publishers would benefit and the market for expensive photocopies would be gone.


Although not explicit I think it is clear that books "out of print worldwide but available here" on the German website must be illegal copies.
John

No longer active on here, I value my privacy.
User avatar
nebogipfel
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: Norfolk UK

PostPost by: vernon.taylor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:49 pm

Salut

I would argue that clarity only comes from hindsight, especially in this case. The exact wording on the site is: 'Sold out worldwide! Here in stock!'. The (intentional) misleading is disguised by declaring/admitting that other works are reprints.

@+

Vernon
User avatar
vernon.taylor
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 927
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Vaugneray, France

PostPost by: elansprint71 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:36 pm

vernon.taylor wrote:Salut and update

Bruce reimbursed me with just enough to send the book back with the cheapest and slowest mail option - PayPal took a cut which I'm not going to fill.

I also called MRP - the guy to speak to, John, was away for the day. I'll call him tomorrow morning.

Now guys, what would you do - send the book back? Keep it as evidence ;-)

@+

Vernon


Send him a photocopy back. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
elansprint71
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4092
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Location: Cheshire, UK.

PostPost by: nebogipfel » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:57 pm

vernon.taylor wrote:Salut

I would argue that clarity only comes from hindsight, especially in this case. The exact wording on the site is: 'Sold out worldwide! Here in stock!'. The (intentional) misleading is disguised by declaring/admitting that other works are reprints.

@+

Vernon



Sorry Vernon I was quoting from memory (never a wise move especially for my memory) but I would still take sold out worldwide to mean just that.

I also intended no criticism and assumed you guessed you were buying a "reprint". I was clearly wrong. :oops:
John

No longer active on here, I value my privacy.
User avatar
nebogipfel
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: Norfolk UK

PostPost by: elanfan1 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:36 pm

nebogipfel wrote:
elanfan1 wrote:I have just spoken to Paul Robinshaw he was aware these books were being copied a few years back and it is fair to say he is not happy with the situation. No permission has been granted and they are infact illegal copies.


The best and most satisfying solution to this problem (certainly from the point of view of "Robinshaw and Ross") would be to persuade Paul that now is the time for a new expanded and revised 3rd edition. Not only would we have the opportunity to buy a genuine copy at a reasonable price, but the authors/publishers would benefit and the market for expensive photocopies would be gone.

quote]


I did touch on this whilst spealing to Paul - he said the original print run was around 3500 copies and whilst an updated reprint might be desirable there probably is a market for no more than 500 and these could take a long time to sell. A printer would have no interest in this.
Steve

Silence is Guildern; Duct Tape is Silver
User avatar
elanfan1
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2069
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Location: Cardiff in Welsh Wales
PreviousNext

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests