Lotus Elan and Lotus Elan Plus 2 Forums

iancockshull wrote:

billwill wrote:Much as we might like to think that these old magazines are 'in the public domain' they almost certainly are NOT.

Oh dear Bill

It looks as if my attempt at being ironic has missed the mark by a mile. When I mentioned the "C" word I was referring to "CHASSIS". I was trying to subtly point out that the Lotus literature referred to the steel backbone as a chassis whilst we now like to refer to it as a sub-frame, especially when conversing with the DVLA.

I promise not to try and be funny in the future

Best regards
Ian

But my comment had nothing to do with that.

Just general situation with copyright.

Having played games with DVLA when I mistakingly declared a C-change back in '78, I know exactly what you mean & p'raps we should always refer to it as a sub-frame.


See
elan-f14/dvla-and-replacement-chassis-t20719.html?hilit=%20dvla
about 12th message down.

These are very interesting, Thanks

Hi Bill

Thanks for your post and info. When I wrote 'in the public domain', I meant that the information contained in Lotus World should be available to us enthusiasts and others interested in Lotus history. I was not referring to the legal position, though I can see how you may have thought I was from re-reading my first post, sorry.

On the question of legality and copyright, as far as Lotus World is concerned, I am fairly sanguine about it. If Lotus want to stop us posting their literature, they will tell us. If the Crown want to come after us, then I shall suggest they re-direct their efforts to WikiLeaks and having words with Julian Assange.

So chaps, please keep posting and ... up the revolution!

Tim

Magazines are subject to the minimum 25 year copyright cover, and it's quite rare for this to be extended. It usually is in the case of collector magazines (Superman comics, Mad Mag etc.) where money can be made out of someone copying the original.

However, let's get a grip here!! These are promotional magazines, created to be distributed, for free, as widely as possible in order to promote the product...Lotus Cars. If there was an opposite to copyright, that would apply to these, as it would to car brochures and press photos of the cars.

So there is no doubt that copyright has expired with these magazines, and I can't see a reason why anybody who had a hand in writting them in the first place would want to exercise such a right, even if they weren't 40 years old.

We also have to remember what the intent is here...it's for sharing information amongst a small group of enthusiasts for the purposes of education. Nobody is making any money out of this, and no product or service is being promoted on the back of this.

A little perspective, Gentlemen!

Mark

Next one although a little late for Christmas

Bye the way.. I was talking about whether the copyright exists and who owns it rather than whether or not it would be enforced.

I'd not come across a 25 year rule for magazines so I looked it up today.
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law

Interesting the 25 year rule applies to "Typographical arrangement of published editions, magazines, periodicals, etc."
i.e it applies to the collection as a whole, and so 25 years is not the age limit on the individual articles. That would still be 70 years after the last death of the authors/creators.

Bill

I spent a lot of time and a fortune on food and wine with a chum of mine, a barrister who has specialised in copyright law for 30 years, when I was setting up my website. I had to make sure that I was covered, as the subject, the history and context, is one that I didn't have any direct experience of. I wasn't at Lotus or Ford at the time, and I was too young to see Jim Clark, Roger Clark or anyone else for that matter, race or rally one of the cars in the period. So I had to draw upon others writings which I chose to take from contemporary magazines...mainly Motorsport, Autocar, Autosport and Motor.

The law on copyright is incredibly complex, and I can't explain all the parameters of why the 25 year rule applies (because I don't know them all) and yes, saying that the 25 year expiry applies is a gross over-simplification. Some of the parameters include:

The information contained in a magazine inherently loses value over time....it is intended to have a short life, like a newspaper, to inform of events that have just happened., product reviews etc. 25 years is considered to be the time by which any content in any magazine has little or no value.

The folks writing for such magazines were either salaried or paid a fee for what they did. In the main, they had and have no expectation for repeat fees (irrespective of blanket copyright law).

If somebody wants to sue for breach of copyright, the maximum return they can expect is related to the benefit received by the person who breached the copyright. It costs many thousands to launch such a case, and when the information is used for education purposes, and it is not representing any product and / or service, they can expect a proportion of zero.

If the information is being used for information purposes only, and the source is quoted if known (rather that an anonymous extract taken) this can be seen in law as free promotion of the magazine and / or authors, a positive action.

Where care has to be taken is if you are using these articles to run down companies or products....it's worth suing then.

He gave me 100 plus pages just focused on the copyright issues in magazines, with a few cases where copyright claims have been made. I tried to read them but they really don't make a lot of sense outside the context of the legal system.

His bottom line was....it just isn't an issue for what I was doing, and that is exactly the same as what we are doing here.

So whilst Wikipedia and other sites give bland one statement facts about copyright, the law is a lot more complex and is orientated to intent, representation and harm, rather than straight usage. It's a shame, as a lot of folks seem to be quoting copyright these days without having the years of experience required to understand its application, which is having the effect of stifling the sharing of information between people who just want to learn.

Mark

It's interesting and obvious from these dated around '69 '70 that Colin was putting all the emphasis on his new creations the +2 and Europa. The Elan is there but tends to be in the background

It would be interesting to see earlier ones when the Elan was given more prominence .........

He clearly didn't realise that he had built the best car in the world when he produced the Elan

Next

And another one:

Here is another one for your delectation, chaps. One page for the US on Lotus East and a very nice studio shot of a Plus 2 S130; is it me or does that car fill it's wheel arches better than usual?

trw99 wrote: a very nice studio shot of a Plus 2 S130; is it me or does that car fill it's wheel arches better than usual?

It does, and I wish mine sat like that too. I don't understand why they all vary so much. I have the colour version of that shot somewhere.

Robbie

This the last Lotus World I have, so if there are any more out there, do please share.

Thanks again Tim,

My last but one.