Lotus Archives

[gherlt]

How about passing it through wikileaks ... ?
So we might get some publicity ?!
Think about "the truth about lotus secret chassis list" ... of the 60s ...

Where is the intelecctual property of a chassis list ?
There is no secret formula, there is no patent, there is no intelectual work/idea. It is a fact list.
I would have no concerns about publishing it.

I would "publish" it, but on a web, not on paper.
A book needs some more content than a list of chassis numbers.

[Old English White]

How about passing it through wikileaks ... ?
So we might get some publicity ?!
Think about "the truth about lotus secret chassis list" ... of the 60s ...

Where is the intelecctual property of a chassis list ?
There is no secret formula, there is no patent, there is no intelectual work/idea. It is a fact list.
I would have no concerns about publishing it.

I would "publish" it, but on a web, not on paper.
A book needs some more content than a list of chassis numbers.

Yeah ,
I love your wikioillyleaks solution .
About the paper Elite list ; You should have seen that . A repro of original book ... BTW , the book is a musthave .
The Elan list is far too big for that , anyway.
Christian.

[trw99]

Christian

You are quite right, it is a big list, over 9,600 lines in my Excel spreadsheet. I have been scoping out the extent of work required for this list and I need some help.

Transferring all the relevant information I have from the Sprints will take a while. It includes unit number, Elan type, year and month, batch number if applicable, colour code, engine prefix, engine number, date of build/invoice/delivery and notes, such as Motor Show car, dealership delivered to and so forth. I hope that this will replicate what was on the Lotus books and that we can do all this for all Elans - S1, S2, S3 and S4 (I am not going to go near the +2!).

One problem is that all of Frank's information is laid out in one form, whereas mine is laid out in another, which entails a good deal of cutting and pasting.

Any volunteers willing to help me, please get in touch either by PM or through my web site.

Tim

[Elanintheforest]

Something to consider Tim is how to keep the base set of data 'clean'.

The purest form is obviously the original Lotus Sales day book, as per the Lotus Elite list in Ortenburger's book. Quite a few folks have various pages of this.

Next is Franks list, which was probably taken from the day book, but which may have some transcription errors. However, it must form the best base available for a database on the Elan.

Next, and this starts to get pretty questionable, is information supplied by owners or observers of car at shows etc. I.E the basis of a register. Especially dodgy around 'original colour', although engine number can be verified within range / unique for the given chassis number.

The bottom line is that it's worth attributing the different fields to the source of those fields so that confidence can be developed in the information provided....and you can always strip out and get back to the information that is the most trustworthy.

I have a few hundred Plus 2 details (beyond Franks list) and am just pulling together a spreadsheet of similar information for the Lotus Cortina, with around 1500 / 2000 car details. The common element of course between all these is the engine number.

Have you converted Franks list into a spreadsheet? If not, I would guess that the easiest way is to print it, and OCR scan it, then pop the results onto Excel.

But I guess before doing anything, you have to identify what the info is going to be used for !! That may well inform of the need for additional info.

Mark

[garyeanderson]

I am not sure where this will lead. How many more Elan's will this new list bring into existence, or should I say built from a new tag? I am all for getting this info into the public's hands I am just not sure this would be the right time to bring this back into the light. Elan values are going up finally and it may bring some older stalled projects back to the front burner again. It also may bring with it the plague of (Lotus) Cortina and what is a real car and what?s a FAKE. Elite's are somewhat more difficult to fake so having those numbers in the publics eyes hasn't created as much of a problem as the lack of good records for the (Lotus) Cortina mk1. With Elan's all the parts are somewhat consumable and the continuous history seems to really be what an Elan is. We change chassis, bodies are crashed and repaired or replaced and engines have worn out or been replaced over the years. So what's the difference between an Elan with none of its original major components and one that have been built around an old registration document and a new stamped chassis tag? I am sitting on both sides of this fence with my thinking at the moment and I guess I have been on both sides of the Cortina fence too, I don't know which side i'll finally fall of on. In the mean time I am going to sit back and watch this play out for a while. Playing with Klipsch Loudspeakers is a lot less expensive than messing with my Elan toys and Beau gets to listen to them too.

Mark that?s a lot of (Lotus) Cortina?s, must be a lot of mk2?s (Cortina Twin Cam's) in the mix?

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12-21-2010 02:00
After reading Stu's reply I can see where my comments can be mis read and I don't want folks to think that I don't tell it like I see it. You can't fake a Cortina, they are all Cortina's. Mk1 LoCorts were built along side the Elan and Saved Lotus ass from going belly up, Mk2 Twin Cam Cortinas were assembled at Ford to Ford's standards and not Lotus. They are not Lotus built but were built to the Spec that Lotus set forth, To my knowledge there is only 1 Mk2 LoCort that was built by Lotus and that was the prototype. There were no LoCorts assembled at Lotus in Norwich. The LoCort is a Cheshunt only built Lotus.

[stugilmour]

Andy, thanks for the excellent update and for providing the available info on my car.

Good points Gary.

The whole vintage Lotus enthusiasm reminds me a bit of the BMW Boxer and 2002 guys, who generally don`t seem to be that fussed about sympathetic period correct upgrades, engine swaps, five speed installs, etc. I get what you mean about the Cortina boys, but isn`t that mainly a case of Lotus Cortina creation rather than repair? This is kind of like created BMW 2002 Turbo`s and 3.0 CSL`s from stock cars, probably without all the correct parts and purposely miss-representing them. Rather different than say upgrading motor output in a stock Elan or replacing a rusted chassis. But I guess if the `build data`makes this sort of thing easier, it might not be a good thing? A bit weird that the market seems to make a big deal out of numbers matching, but it seems to with other brands to a very high degree. Guess that`s another reason I like BMW & Lotus rather than a $250K muscle car on Barrett-Jackson.

[trw99]

In putting together a list of all Elans built by Lotus (to the best of our knowledge) the aim would be to rebuild the records for each car, since Lotus do not have such complete records any longer themselves and it would also be to record how each car left Lotus in it's original specification.

Why? Because a large number of owners would really like to know that information. It adds to the ownership experience. Lotus are frequently asked for the records they have on a car, as it left the factory. In addition, it will help future generations of owners and enthusiasts and we should start this project now whilst there are people around who can add to the data. What if a new owner takes over Lotus and has no interest in the heritage and gets rid of a mass of archive material? We have already seen a previous owner sell off the Lotus car collection because it bought in a few extra thousand to help them pay their huge monthly debt repayment bill; what a waste we all consider that.

As to the risk of people 'building a new car' using old numbers, I could argue that having the correct data in the public domain may help us to identify when that happens and might even dissuade some to build such a car. However, I would point out that many other marques have full details of all the cars made and how they left the factory. Let me also be quite clear, this would not be a register, where current owners list their own car and the state of tune it is in now, the colour it is now, the engine it is fitted with now, the chassis type it is fitted with now. We have Unibrains Register to do that. This would have as-it-left-the-factory data only.

Only this morning I had a PM from a lister asking for any information I could give them on their car. I was happy to do so and I hope it gave him an even warmer feeling about owning his Sprint. Sometimes I have to disappoint people because sadly I have little or no additional information I can give them. I happen to collect as much info on each and every Sprint I come across for my own records and it is this which can be helpful. I have even had the factory ask if I have information on a particular Sprint. It gives me much pleasure to help fellow enthusiasts in this way. I shall now go and take my anorak off and get on with the day job!

Tim

[Elanintheforest]

I come from the position of full disclosure and think that the best way forward is to do what Dennis Ortenburger did with the factory Elite records....get them into the public domain. That information has formed the base of the Club Elite register for a long time now (since 1978) and a very accurate register of cars, as produced and as currently known, is maintained.

There are no issues about re-shells, write-offs or clones that I know of with the Elite. Where two cars have been put together to keep one running it's recorded. Where a car has had to be re-shelled it's recorded. None of that makes a difference to the value, which of course is the underlying reason for secrecy / allegations / mistrust in the first place.

I don't think that there would be any issues with Elans either. Currently, having a new chassis is seen as an asset, and not having the original engine is quite usual. Many Elans have had new bodyshells or major parts of body shells, and that seems to make no difference. An Elan can't be cloned from anything, so it could only ever be a re-construction around a given ID, which is an expensive way of getting into Elan ownership.

I don't think it's too much different for the Lotus Cortina either. It's certainly not economically viable to accurately clone a standard or GT Mk 2 2 door Cortina into a Mk 2 Lotus Cortina...the numbers don't add up by a long way.

It's pretty marginal with the Mk 1 as well, as there are so many special parts required, many of which are nearly impossible to find and crazy money if you can find one. As the market matures, more buyers are realising that provenance is everything with these cars, and any on the market with a gap of 30 years in their known history have to be scrutinised very carefully.

So, Tim, I'm up for helping with a factory-correct Elan listing, just PM me with your requirements!

Mark

[garyeanderson]

OK, I don't see any problems of rebuilding a car from two or three others that have gotten to the point where that?s the only way to salvage an Elan. I think you know that my wrecks have been built that way. My problem with this "full disclosure" is building 2 or more cars for ONE. This is the argument that has been put forth to me in the past and it's now seems to be a real concern. Look at 23's and Eleven's, when that original discarded chassis become the basis for another car somewhere, who does decide what is the real original. Shall we have to leave it to the courts? This is not a problem right now with the Elan but 26r?s have the problem and as the value of the type 26 continues to rise it may well creep into the general production Elan's before you know it. Anything that has ever been made can be re-made, its all a matter of economic sense. If you think that I am arguing from both sides, well I am. I don't know what is the right way to approach this anymore. I used to think that FULL disclosure would be the right way, but now I am not so certain. What a change you say, well I say its a bit odd of me too but when restoration candidates starting to hit $12k plus where they were just $2 to $3k a couple of short years back the market will drive where it will. There are only so many pristine examples and will the sows ears will become the next fruit to blossom? I don't know, because I am biased in my appraisal of the new market for Elan's of all years.

[paddy]

I think the information has been around in various forms and different places for a while. Anyone who wanted to abuse the information probably has it already. It's just everyone else, who might have a legitimate use for it, or might be able to use it to spot the scammers, that doesn't have access.

Paddy

[LotusArchives]

I am all for having the information available to owners, that is why the Lotus Archivist details are on this site, so if anyone wants the information, all they have to do is contact me. I also understand the concerns about this data being lost, which is why I am currently creating back-ups for this data.

I do not believe that a full list of chassis numbers/engine numbers/registation numbers etc. should be out there for all to see. Why? I have been warned not to provide information to a certain individual as previously the police were involved as this person was trading with cars under a false identity. While working with the HLR, we caught out a individual who had brought a car knowing it was not genuine, but was after a letter of authenticity for the chassis number, so that to anyone else it would look genuine. There are unfinished restoration projects where VIN plate removed and chassis numbers not readable/replacement chassis, and they need a geniune chassis number to create a new identity, ge the car registered etc. All they would do is pick one from your list where either there are no records (therefore tracability) or data close enough to match the car they are restoring.

How would you feel about another car being out there with the same chassis number?

I do believe that an independant register (like the Historic Lotus Register) who can be used to exchange data, collect data and archive it for future generation with a register where a record of owners, where car is located etc. would be very useful for all Elan owners, both current and future as they can contact the register to find out if the car being sold is the car advertised. They can also record where information is being provided to, to help stop the fraud and false identities that go on.

Is there a register to cover Elans or someone who wants to take on such a responsibility?

[elancoupe]

How would you feel about another car being out there with the same chassis number?

I do believe that an independant register (like the Historic Lotus Register) who can be used to exchange data, collect data and archive it for future generation with a register where a record of owners, where car is located etc. would be very useful for all Elan owners, both current and future as they can contact the register to find out if the car being sold is the car advertised. They can also record where information is being provided to, to help stop the fraud and false identities that go on.

Is there a register to cover Elans or someone who wants to take on such a responsibility?

There has been an instance of this on this very forum. Personally, I was shocked at the apathy/justification shown for this situation. IMHO this a very bad thing.

I have seen this go on with Cobras and Ferraris. Whether the intent is deliberate or accidental, any information for clarification would be a good thing.


An online regisrty does exist here: http://www.elanregistry.org/ The contributions to it benefit all of us.


LotusArchives, thanks for joining us!

[stugilmour]

How would you feel about another car being out there with the same chassis number?

I do believe that an independent register (like the Historic Lotus Register) who can be used to exchange data, collect data and archive it for future generation with a register where a record of owners, where car is located etc. would be very useful for all Elan owners, both current and future as they can contact the register to find out if the car being sold is the car advertised. They can also record where information is being provided to, to help stop the fraud and false identities that go on.

Is there a register to cover Elans or someone who wants to take on such a responsibility?

There has been an instance of this on this very forum. Personally, I was shocked at the apathy/justification shown for this situation. IMHO this a very bad thing.

I have seen this go on with Cobras and Ferrari's. Whether the intent is deliberate or accidental, any information for clarification would be a good thing.


An online registry does exist here: http://www.elanregistry.org/ The contributions to it benefit all of us.


LotusArchives, thanks for joining us!

Just to perhaps clarify Gary's earlier post on this thread regarding our existing on line registry quoted above, my profile on this list does not appear to provide a field for engine number. I expect this is the heart of any claim of "numbers matching". As already noted , this is a user entered data list, and does not purport to be a definitive listing by the manufacturer. A great and valuable list, but different than what is being proposed. If I were a fraudster, I suppose I could enter anything I want on this list, and so be it. Not a problem, because we all realize this, and don't put it up as some sort of definitive listing that should be a primary source for provenance.

I think what Mike is getting at about the existing registry is that may make purposeful fraud more difficult because a double entry would be pretty obvious I guess. Although a fraudster would be unlikely to add his creation to the list, a potential purchaser could perhaps compare a car on offer to the list and detect a problem.

12-21-2010 02:00
---------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading Stu's reply I can see where my comments can be mis read and I don't want folks to think that I don't tell it like I see it. You can't fake a Cortina, they are all Cortina's. Mk1 LoCorts were built along side the Elan and Saved Lotus ass from going belly up, Mk2 Twin Cam Cortinas were assembled at Ford to Ford's standards and not Lotus. They are not Lotus built but were built to the Spec that Lotus set forth, To my knowledge there is only 1 Mk2 LoCort that was built by Lotus and that was the prototype. There were no LoCorts assembled at Lotus in Norwich. The LoCort is a Cheshunt only built Lotus.

I think I understand what Gary is getting at above, but to perhaps clarify what I meant. Mark and Gary obviously know way more about Cortina models and provenance than me; my example was perhaps a poor one or open to confusion.

I understand the BMW M6 very well because I have owned one for quite a while, so will use it as a hopefully clearer example. Like the LoCort, it is based on a very common production model (E24 635 CSi), but has a series of key differences. Like the LoCort, it represents a limited percentage of BMW E24 production, and was a recognized performance upgrade that was considerably more expensive when new. Like the LoCort, the 635 and the M6 are more similar than different. Sort of like the Mk 2, the M635 was a very early M design, which was a separate internal 'firm" within BMW, and sort of analigous to the Mk2 production perhaps? An M6 could certainly be built up out of a 635 by adding various specific M6 components.

The key difference is the ?80?s vintage VIN system is way more robust, and it would be very difficult to pass off a build up as a genuine M6, even to the most casual consumer. The VIN is actually included separately on a bunch of body parts, so it is reasonably easy to even see if the fender has been replaced. The VIN can be easily checked on-line, and tons of details inferred from the VIN. BMW Tradition can easily provide a certificate definitively attesting to most build sheet details just from the VIN.

Presently no one is bothering to build a fraudulent or homage M6 because a rebuilt M6 engine is pretty much worth as much as the whole car and real M6?s are reasonably common, so it is more practical to just buy what you want. Who knows if this changes 20 years from now when the M635/M6 production timing ('84 to '88) is closer to current LoCort & Elan vintage, but that?s the present reality in the market.

My limited understanding of the LoCort is that it is presently potentially ?worth? someone taking a Mk 1 Cortina and making it look like a LoCort. My sense is guys as expert as Gary and Mark would be able to spot this ?fraud? or homage to a great car pretty easily. My point is that the market for this sort of build-up is generally not created by the experts, it is created by guys like me that find the LoCort appealing but no nothing about its details. We end up buying one, joining a list like this, and finding out after the fact that we got screwed or screwed ourselves by not doing all of the research before laying down the dough.

So why would it matter to the broader Lotus community if someone new to the marque or model gets screwed? I think the issue is like Mike is referring to with Cobra?s. If the number of confusing build-ups (fraudulently represented or not) becomes large enough, it confuses the broader market and devalues everyone?s car. Again, I don?t know Cobra?s in any detail, but I understand their provenance issues are acute because of difficulty in having a definitive registry and consensus on who controls and validates what limited records are available. Not sure, but I think the specific duplicate number issue Mike refers to above is a little tricky because there is considerable uncertainty on the accuracy of available records.

Andy, thanks for your post as well. Would the ideal thing be if the Lotus Archives guys could be provided with the additional material that appears to be available and come up with a way to steward it?

Interesting discussion guys.

ps: Tim and Andy?s info on my car has certainly increased my enjoyment and added to the owner experience, and I really support any effort that makes the detailed information available in a reliable way. Like everyone here, just trying to think through the best way to do this.

[trw99]

I am all for having the information available to owners, that is why the Lotus Archivist details are on this site, so if anyone wants the information, all they have to do is contact me. I also understand the concerns about this data being lost, which is why I am currently creating back-ups for this data.

I do not believe that a full list of chassis numbers/engine numbers/registration numbers etc. should be out there for all to see. Why? I have been warned not to provide information to a certain individual as previously the police were involved as this person was trading with cars under a false identity. While working with the HLR, we caught out a individual who had brought a car knowing it was not genuine, but was after a letter of authenticity for the chassis number, so that to anyone else it would look genuine. There are unfinished restoration projects where VIN plate removed and chassis numbers not readable/replacement chassis, and they need a geniune chassis number to create a new identity, ge the car registered etc. All they would do is pick one from your list where either there are no records (therefore tracability) or data close enough to match the car they are restoring.

How would you feel about another car being out there with the same chassis number?

I do believe that an independant register (like the Historic Lotus Register) who can be used to exchange data, collect data and archive it for future generation with a register where a record of owners, where car is located etc. would be very useful for all Elan owners, both current and future as they can contact the register to find out if the car being sold is the car advertised. They can also record where information is being provided to, to help stop the fraud and false identities that go on.

Is there a register to cover Elans or someone who wants to take on such a responsibility?

Andy

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution. I have sent you an e-mail with some further thoughts and copied Mark in on it.

Quick summary, as I see it at this point. Unibrain's register is purely existing owners posting some details on their own car. My Sprint database is of all Sprints with information known on as many of them as possible. The Type 26 Register has data on all (I know, I use the term loosely!) of the S1 and S2 variants. The new all Elan database I am currently putting together is to record all data on Elans as they left the factory. Once that is done, we need to decide where to keep the data, how freely it is made available and to maintain it.

I am happy to do the work on this and to maintain it in an open and transparent way, once we reach a consensus on access.

I've probably missed a point or three but it's Christmas Eve, I need to wrap some presents and I'm on my second glass of Rioja, so Merry Christmas to you all!

Tim

[Peter Ross]

On 24th December ?Lotus Archives? wrote:

I do believe that an independant register (like the Historic Lotus Register) who can be used to exchange data, collect data and archive it for future generation with a register where a record of owners, where car is located etc. would be very useful for all Elan owners, both current and future as they can contact the register to find out if the car being sold is the car advertised. They can also record where information is being provided to, to help stop the fraud and false identities that go on.

Is there a register to cover Elans or someone who wants to take on such a responsibility?

I am the Webmaster for the Historic Lotus Register (HLR) and at the moment we provide a link to http://www.type26register.com/register.html which offers a register of the Type 26 S1 and S2 Elan and the Type 50 Elan + 2. Later Elans, the S3 and S4, had Type Nos. 36 and 45.

The HLR was approached a few years ago to add the Type 26 Elan to the cars for which we keep a register, but it was felt that the sheer volume of cars would swamp an organisation set up principally to cover the early competition cars, rather than the production versions, and we were happy to see that Tim Mees and Charles Giles had set up shop under the umbrella of Club Lotus, with their own website. We were very sorry to learn of the recent death of Tim Mees.

Now I see that there is another Elan Registry under the wing of your own Lotus Elan.net organisation, and I am unclear whether these are rival organisations (that may not be on speaking terms) or that each has its own separate niche without any resultant duplication?

Now Tim Wilkes has started yet another register, this time for the Elan Sprint. How does this fit in with the other lists? I should add that HLR does list the Type 26R competition version, but there are not many of these (but like the Lotus 23, their numbers are growing!).

To which website should I provide a link? Your opinions would be welcomed.