Engine Swaps

[John Sullivan]

Yes, i want to put a chin spoiler on it. The front end feels real light at 140, had to let the 550 Marrinello go at that point...stays right with it up to then.
the 550 was the fastest car among all of them.

----- Original Message -----
From: holywood3645
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:46 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Engine Swap (the ulimate)

The Twinks big brother, A least what it developed into. A stroked
2.1 ltr BDG, alloy KAM 4 main bolt 90mm block, Farndon 82 mm forged
crank and rods, Hart modified BDG head, running on modest 48mm
dello's In the region of 275+ bhp at 11.1 CR, Dry sump, Weighing a
mere 160 lb. Forget those heavy V8's. I've got the engine, an S4,
but the poor bits will brake......

There is a John Sullivan who posts here, John has a BDP (240~260 BHP)
engine in his S3, with the bugs worked out. You should ask hime some
of the stories. It is amazing...... (they are pretty expensive) As
John said his main problem is stability above 145mph, the car with
gearing should hit 169.... NOT BAD FOR A 30 Year old car, and an
engine from the earily 80's. Forget the Zetec, Modify the T/cam head
fit an 90mm alloy block, and look for 180-200bhp. John Mc Coy will
make the head breath for you....

[ecamiel]

Chin spoilers do help lap times, so does setting the car up with the
front end raked down. However, the Sports Car Graphic road test (1963?)
showed down force at both ends in stock form and found the car very
stable. Mine is a handful on rough or undulating or heavily crowned
roads when pushing at any speed but good at 140+ on a relatively smooth
track. It never caused fear even on the downhills at Bridgehampton for
example. Ultimately, the frame is very flexible.
It was never designed for the loads of modern tires. Frame flex (on the
horizontal plane, not twist) was the problem with the back boned frame
Lotus 30/40 which also had stability problems. I believe that is the
source of the instability. I assume the suspension is set up to your
tires and you have solid suspension and rack mounts, race springs and
carefully tuned shocks.
Anyone out there with a full cage who would like to comment?

Eric 64 S1 Hart TC

John Sullivan wrote:

[rgh0]

I agree that stability at high speeds in a straight line at least should not
be a problem in even a standard elan.

I regularily run mine at 8000 rpm plus and 140 mph plus on tracks in
competition and have never found stability a problem just running in
straight line even when the suspension and tires were very standard.
Stability problems related more to high speed braking especially on bumpy
tracks and to high speed sweeping corners such as the exit from the main
straigt at Phillip Isaland here in Victoria which is about a 110 mph right
hand bend.

Occassionaly you get some stability problems with strong cross winds at very
high speeds but most light cars such as the elan will experience this.

I have worked to improve stability in high speed braking and fast sweeping
corners by doing the usual things within the limits of our historic
regulations in Australia.

i.e.
1. stiffer springs and dampers.
2. lower ride height
3. careful alignment and corner weight checking ( but still standard
settings)
4. stiff suspension bushings ( stiff urethane plastic as not allowed ball
joints).
5. limited slip diff ( makes a big difference accelerating out of fast
corners)
6. better driver location with good six point harness ( makes a bigger
difference than you think, currently working on better seat in addition) so
you can actually hold use the wheel properly without using it for support.
7. regular replacement of pads and cleaning of disks to remove deposits.
Used to use Ferodo DS 2000 pads, now using EBC greenstuff pads which appear
to behave with similar performance but leave less deposits on the disks.
8.I have not tried a chin spoiler as not allowed under our regulations but
given no straight line stability problems, I dont beleive this would be a
great benefit.

Rohan Hodges
S4 FHC

[John Sullivan]

Not being used to such speeds, it just felt as though the front end was very light. My aluminum block is much lighter than the stock 1600 too.

JS

----- Original Message -----
From: Rohan Hodges
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:41 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Re: Engine Swap (the ulimate) and high speed stability

I agree that stability at high speeds in a straight line at least should not
be a problem in even a standard elan.

I regularily run mine at 8000 rpm plus and 140 mph plus on tracks in
competition and have never found stability a problem just running in
straight line even when the suspension and tires were very standard.
Stability problems related more to high speed braking especially on bumpy
tracks and to high speed sweeping corners such as the exit from the main
straigt at Phillip Isaland here in Victoria which is about a 110 mph right
hand bend.

Occassionaly you get some stability problems with strong cross winds at very
high speeds but most light cars such as the elan will experience this.

I have worked to improve stability in high speed braking and fast sweeping
corners by doing the usual things within the limits of our historic
regulations in Australia.

i.e.
1. stiffer springs and dampers.
2. lower ride height
3. careful alignment and corner weight checking ( but still standard
settings)
4. stiff suspension bushings ( stiff urethane plastic as not allowed ball
joints).
5. limited slip diff ( makes a big difference accelerating out of fast
corners)
6. better driver location with good six point harness ( makes a bigger
difference than you think, currently working on better seat in addition) so
you can actually hold use the wheel properly without using it for support.
7. regular replacement of pads and cleaning of disks to remove deposits.
Used to use Ferodo DS 2000 pads, now using EBC greenstuff pads which appear
to behave with similar performance but leave less deposits on the disks.
8.I have not tried a chin spoiler as not allowed under our regulations but
given no straight line stability problems, I dont beleive this would be a
great benefit.

Rohan Hodges
S4 FHC

[tmr]

Bill:

The nice thing about Lotus cars and enthusiasts (vs. Porsche, for
instance) is that most people involved with them really don't worry
too much about originality. Don't blast Bob just because he doesn't
want to spend mucho $$$ trying to make a 40-year-old design come up
with decent horsepower/longevity/oil consumption/emissions/etc. He
can save his original drivetrain for the next owner's use, if so
inclined. Zetecs are widely available and would make for a
nice 'daily driver' powertrain. Besides, I don't think that Elans
are going to go through the roof in value any time soon. Cut the guy
some slack!

Now, what about a Honda S2000 drivetrain.....

Tom Roberds
1969 Elan (99% original, mind you!)



--- In lotuselan@y..., Bill Rathlef <billrathlef@s...> wrote:

[Bill]

Tom R. -99% origional 69 Elan

You know that Ivory soap was 99 and 44/100's % pure in its time.

I don't entirely disagree with you as far as retaining orgionality goes, I
am sure that many of the cars still out there have gone through many PO's to
the current owners and that these new owners would like to mix modern engine
technology with the handling of our "antique" - but still very adequet (?)
sports chassis.

But I bought my 1963, 1600 (26/0538) from the factory new in 1963 and had it
shipped out to western Canada. There are a few of us though who have kept
our cars for that period of time.

I try my best to keep it as origional as possible and but for new tires,
paint, Pertronix ignition and retrofit of a starter that now works mine
still is as it came from the factory floor (even the Gila Monster skin
interior floor mats are as new). I have the origional factory invoice and
have put on almost 50,000 miles of club racing, hill climbs, gymkanas and
back road sport in 39 years.

However - last year I found a '65 S2 chassis and body to meld with the '65
total write off car that was my "spare bits" for the past 36 years so now I
can go along with your opinion of modification (and keep the twin cam for a
spare for my origional car).

I would love to do the tricks, total running gear and chassis mods, it would
be the thing to do I spose as I would have no emotional atachment to this
one,

Mind you the two S2's were only 8 production numbers apart on the line.
Maybe they are brothers not ment to be parted hey

Yep and maybe some day the Elan will regain some "collector value" --
tomorow I am going out to fly my cow.

Bill

26/0538

26/4814(4806)

[ecamiel]

John
Did you check ride height? Front should be down from rear. Also, check
very carefully for cracked frame, rack mounts, cracked front and rear
suspension mounts. Check for play in the Rack. Pull your shocks and have
them matched by the maker on a shock dyno. When set up right, even
stock, the Elan is aerodynamically stable.
Eric

John Sullivan wrote:

["bruceknoer"]

You're right on target Tom. I always have a problem with screwing up
the bodywork with different mods but what goes on under the skin
usually only improves things. I know if I had the time and
inclination I be looking for a good bit more hp. Maybe next year. B
Allen 66 Elan
--- In lotuselan@y..., "tmroberds" <troberds@m...> wrote:

["Bob Layman"]

Tom/list,

I considered the S2000 drivetrain. Three issues: 1) It is very
heavy (don't have exact weight) based on info from someone who
installed one in a Locost, 2) I haven't been able to locate one
anyway, and 3) the electronics are a challenge as Honda won't
release pin-out information (but enthusiasts are figuring out what
to do). Also, 250hp probably would severely test the theory of too
much is never enough.

Next week, I hope to measure and weigh both a 2L Zetec and a 2L
Duratec. If the Duratec is significantly lighter, I probably will
take that route even though it will mean designing a clutch
housing/adapter to accommodate the unique duratec RFB bolt pattern
and the "reversed" intake and exhaust systems.

Authenticity doesn't concern me with this car. However, I am being
true to the concept of the Elan -- just building a better one. BTW -
- Mr. Chapman and I once had a brief discussion on this years ago.
Brief because he didn't like my critique of some of his design
features and production engineering and he did not have effective
responses to the items I mentioned. It certainly didn't get me on
his Christmas card list.

Regardless of what I think of some of the execution, the concept is
the brilliant and lasting part of the Elan.

Bob Layman

[john.p.clegg]

Bob
can you expand on your chat to Mr Chapman?
john68plus2


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Layman [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 30 October 2002 16:41
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Engine Swaps


Tom/list,

I considered the S2000 drivetrain. Three issues: 1) It is very
heavy (don't have exact weight) based on info from someone who
installed one in a Locost, 2) I haven't been able to locate one
anyway, and 3) the electronics are a challenge as Honda won't
release pin-out information (but enthusiasts are figuring out what
to do). Also, 250hp probably would severely test the theory of too
much is never enough.

Next week, I hope to measure and weigh both a 2L Zetec and a 2L
Duratec. If the Duratec is significantly lighter, I probably will
take that route even though it will mean designing a clutch
housing/adapter to accommodate the unique duratec RFB bolt pattern
and the "reversed" intake and exhaust systems.

Authenticity doesn't concern me with this car. However, I am being
true to the concept of the Elan -- just building a better one. BTW -
- Mr. Chapman and I once had a brief discussion on this years ago.
Brief because he didn't like my critique of some of his design
features and production engineering and he did not have effective
responses to the items I mentioned. It certainly didn't get me on
his Christmas card list.

Regardless of what I think of some of the execution, the concept is
the brilliant and lasting part of the Elan.

Bob Layman

[gobw2]

Rohan - what did you do to the engine to make it safe at 8000 rpm plus???
George 67 S3
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:08:35 +1100 "Rohan Hodges"
<***@***.***> writes:
I regularily run mine at 8000 rpm plus and 140 mph plus on tracks in
competition and have never found stability a problem just running in

Rohan Hodges
S4 FHC

[Arno Church]

If authenticity is not an issue, why not consider the Toyota 4AGE engine, with Toyota T50 Gearbox?
The engine is quite light (under 90 Kg's ) is twincam , revs to 8500 standard and can give 200 bhp easily. It is small, would fit nicely in the Elan engine bay. They are also very reliable and very cheap to source
Further, this engine is based (cribbed) directly on the BDA as far as head design, valve sizes and angles, bore and stroke etc is concerned, it cannot be bored much bigger than about 1690 cc
Arno

Next week, I hope to measure and weigh both a 2L Zetec and a 2L
Duratec. If the Duratec is significantly lighter, I probably will
take that route even though it will mean designing a clutch
housing/adapter to accommodate the unique duratec RFB bolt pattern
and the "reversed" intake and exhaust systems.

Authenticity doesn't concern me with this car.
Bob Layman

["Bob Layman"]

--- In lotuselan@y..., "Arno Church" <stuckect@i...> wrote:



Arno,

Good point. Perhaps, as a retired Ford employee, I was confining
myself too much on the swap. Is there a 2L equivalent to the 4AGE
engine and a suitable gearbox (if the T50 doesn't have the
torque/power capacity)? Can you recommend a source (web site, book,
or?) for Toyota information -- particularly with regard to
repowering/swap projects?

Has anyone done a swap like Arno suggested? If so, your comments
would be most helpful.

TIA,
Bob Layman

[lotusnut]

I looked into 4AGE 2 yrs ago. Did not put one in. Looks like it would
fit. Check the height! I agree with what Arno said. And Yes there are
newer 12 & 16 Valve Toyo engines but eventually they went FI front wheel
drive. So it is up to you how much work you are willing to do to convert
to RWD. carburetor might be best. Search the web using Toyota 4AGE . The
lads in Oz have a lot of experience. Yanks also. Don't hesitate to
contact people who show their projects on the web. Someone will know someone.

At 03:36 PM 11/1/2002 +0000, Bob Layman wrote:

[ardee_selby]

I posted these back in May wrt marrying Ford to Toyota boxes.
Somewhere to start, maybe.

http://www.fraser.co.nz/engine.html
http://www.conversioncomp.co.nz/products.htm

Cheers - Richard

--- In lotuselan@y..., DAVE <mck2@m...> wrote: