Lotus Elan

SAE to Brit thread danger?

PostPost by: rdssdi » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:17 am

Another area that causes confusion is the fact that some BSW or BSF nuts can
be screwed on UNF or UNC bolts and vice-versa. Under NO circumstances should
this practice even be considered.

I copied this from a fastener site. I replaced all my front spindle, stub
axle etc. with UNC/UNF bolts and nuts. Does this pose a potential failure?

Has anyone replaced their original hardware with U.S. fasteners?

Bob
1969 Elan +2
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PostPost by: Guest » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:19 am

Bob

If you replaced the bolt and nut then there is no problem assuming they
were the correct tensile strength. It is only a problem if you put a UNC
nut on a BSW bolt or vice-versa.

Rod.

Rodney Stevens
CSIRO Minerals
phone 02 9710 6701
Mobile 0432 506 427
Web: http://www.minerals.csiro.au/

Personal Web Page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rodjohnst ... mepage.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Behalf Of ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, 12 September 2006 10:12 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] SAE to Brit thread danger?

Another area that causes confusion is the fact that some BSW or BSF
nuts can
be screwed on UNF or UNC bolts and vice-versa. Under NO circumstances
should
this practice even be considered.

I copied this from a fastener site. I replaced all my front spindle,
stub
axle etc. with UNC/UNF bolts and nuts. Does this pose a potential
failure?

Has anyone replaced their original hardware with U.S. fasteners?

Bob
1969 Elan +2
Guest
 

PostPost by: kayenney » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:22 am

Yes, forcing UNC/UNF nuts onto BSW/BSF bolts can lead to failure, but using UNC/UNF nuts and bolts to replace BSW/BSF nuts and bolts is OK. The limiting factor is the grade of the bolt.

Let me know if you can't source a BA knurled nut and I will search my odds and ends box.

Ken
NW Florida
'69 +2, etc




---------------------------------
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PostPost by: "Roger Sieling" » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:01 am

I can verify that all period Smith instruments used BA threads as did
Lucas electrics at the same time. Since you have mentioned that an 8-32
UNF will start to go on, a 8-32 design diameter is .164. That is the max
size for the male thread, most are slightly smaller. A 3BA size is .161
with a thread pitch of 34.8 TPI. Another difference in most British
thread forms is a 55 degree thread angle while most UNF/UNC SAE and
metric are 60 degree angle. The above info from my 1958 issue of "Newnes
Engineer's manual", of British origin.

A friend of mine is restoring a pre-war Rolls and he has good access to
BA fasteners in the US. If you can't find a good source, I'll ask him
where to go.

Roger (Ohio)

>> ***@***.*** >>>
Yes, forcing UNC/UNF nuts onto BSW/BSF bolts can lead to failure, but

using UNC/UNF nuts and bolts to replace BSW/BSF nuts and bolts is OK.
The limiting factor is the grade of the bolt.

Let me know if you can't source a BA knurled nut and I will search my
odds and ends box.

Ken
NW Florida
'69 +2, etc




---------------------------------
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rates.
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PostPost by: Rob_LaMoreaux » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:18 am


I copied this from a fastener site. I replaced all my front
spindle, stub
axle etc. with UNC/UNF bolts and nuts. Does this pose a
potential failure?

Has anyone replaced their original hardware with U.S. fasteners?


The only BA threads on the Elan were the instruments. The suspension and
chassis bolts are all SAE, so no problems there. If you check in the parts
manual you will see that the bolts and nuts are called out by their sae size
and length, except for a few. The few that are not called out by sae size,
such as those in the rubber donuts, were actually AN bolts.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.
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PostPost by: mikecauser » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:17 pm

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 07:18:31 -0400 "rob_lamoreaux" <***@***.***> wrote:

The only BA threads on the Elan were the instruments.

And a couple inside the distributor, some in the voltage regulator, etc.
Pretty much everything electrical that needed small screws would be BA.


The suspension and chassis bolts are all SAE, so no problems there.

Actually "Unified". SAE may be the same, but the UNC/UNF series have
much wider application than the SAE cover.


The few that are not called out by sae size, such as those in the
rubber donuts, were actually AN bolts.

Do you mean American National or Airforce/Navy? American National are
functionaly nearly the same as Unified, but both they and Airforce/Navy
would be unobtainable in the UK in the 1960's, so they are something
else. Lotus had a close relationship with GKN, the major bolt
manufacturer in the UK, so specials would be no problem.


Mike
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PostPost by: denicholls2 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:42 pm

Anyone who has had LBC parts cars probably has a dozen or so of these
rattling around in the bottom of some toolbox. I know the same nut was
used on all early Lotus cars and Triumphs through at least 1970, for
every instrument on the dash.

If you're stuck, I'll go digging. But with the number of parted-out
cars, this shouldn't be a problem.

On the sub-thread, it's been mentioned that the grade of bolts for
suspension parts is the important thing. Beware! A grade 8
(theoretically stronger) bolt is much more brittle (susceptible to
shattering under sudden pothole shock) than a lowly Grade 5.

Carroll Smith, a man those with performance cars should acquire some
respect for, will always opt for the Grade 5 in safety-critical
applications, because it will bend before it breaks (even if it bends
sooner than Grade 8).

There are also a lot of Chinese bolts on the market labeled as Grade 8
that are actually more like Grade 2. :-(

-- Doug Nicholls, 54/1822 Ma~
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PostPost by: "Roger Sieling" » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:50 pm

Doug,

Carroll was a personal friend of sorts. Unfortunately, his wisdom is
only available in his series of books today. I'm thinking he died 3-5
years ago. Of interest to this list would be that just before his death,
he was negotiating to buy a couple of Elans to restore. I don't know how
far he got to actual purchase. Wouldn't it have been fun having him as
part of this list. Maybe someone at DBE might know.

Roger

>> ***@***.*** 9/12/2006 9:38 AM >>>
Anyone who has had LBC parts cars probably has a dozen or so of these

rattling around in the bottom of some toolbox. I know the same nut
was
used on all early Lotus cars and Triumphs through at least 1970, for
every instrument on the dash.

If you're stuck, I'll go digging. But with the number of parted-out
cars, this shouldn't be a problem.

On the sub-thread, it's been mentioned that the grade of bolts for
suspension parts is the important thing. Beware! A grade 8
(theoretically stronger) bolt is much more brittle (susceptible to
shattering under sudden pothole shock) than a lowly Grade 5.

Carroll Smith, a man those with performance cars should acquire some
respect for, will always opt for the Grade 5 in safety-critical
applications, because it will bend before it breaks (even if it bends
sooner than Grade 8).

There are also a lot of Chinese bolts on the market labeled as Grade 8
that are actually more like Grade 2. :-(

-- Doug Nicholls, 54/1822 Ma~
"Roger Sieling"
 

PostPost by: denicholls2 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:55 pm

I'm sorry to learn that.

I don't race and I'm not educated much in physics. I bought the "To
Win" series last year on the recommendation of a Europa lister.
Carroll's detailed and pragmatic explanations taught me way more than I
ever expected to learn about suspension dynamics, metallurgy, ... and
most importantly, keeping focus on where in the big picture change makes
a real difference.

His work is enormously useful, and his willingness to share his insights
with those who would have been his competitors rare. That he would take
time from what I'm sure was an extremely busy life to share his
knowledge in this way made him a truly unique character in our modern
world.

An enthusiast will find few better ways to invest around $100 (and spend
a few rainy or winter weekends) than in this series. I think I got my
set from Summit Racing.

-- Doug Nicholls, 54/1822 Ma~

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Sieling [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 10:48 AM
To: Nicholls, Doug; ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: SAE to Brit thread danger?

Doug,

Carroll was a personal friend of sorts. Unfortunately, his wisdom is
only available in his series of books today. I'm thinking he died 3-5
years ago. Of interest to this list would be that just before his death,
he was negotiating to buy a couple of Elans to restore. I don't know how
far he got to actual purchase. Wouldn't it have been fun having him as
part of this list. Maybe someone at DBE might know.

Roger

>> ***@***.*** 9/12/2006 9:38 AM >>>
Anyone who has had LBC parts cars probably has a dozen or so of these

rattling around in the bottom of some toolbox. I know the same nut
was
used on all early Lotus cars and Triumphs through at least 1970, for
every instrument on the dash.

If you're stuck, I'll go digging. But with the number of parted-out
cars, this shouldn't be a problem.

On the sub-thread, it's been mentioned that the grade of bolts for
suspension parts is the important thing. Beware! A grade 8
(theoretically stronger) bolt is much more brittle (susceptible to
shattering under sudden pothole shock) than a lowly Grade 5.

Carroll Smith, a man those with performance cars should acquire some
respect for, will always opt for the Grade 5 in safety-critical
applications, because it will bend before it breaks (even if it bends
sooner than Grade 8).

There are also a lot of Chinese bolts on the market labeled as Grade 8
that are actually more like Grade 2. :-(

-- Doug Nicholls, 54/1822 Ma~
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PostPost by: Rob_LaMoreaux » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:52 pm

Thanks Mike,

> The only BA threads on the Elan were the instruments.

And a couple inside the distributor, some in the voltage
regulator, etc.
Pretty much everything electrical that needed small screws
would be BA.


I sit corrected, but then I replaced the guts of my distributor and
regulator with semiconductor parts, so not much BA left. How does BA relate
to Whitworth?


> The suspension and chassis bolts are all SAE, so no problems there.

Actually "Unified". SAE may be the same, but the UNC/UNF series have
much wider application than the SAE cover.


Here again I sit corrected, but often SAE and UN are interchangeable and the
previous posts were referring to SAE, but I will agree UN is more accurate.


> The few that are not called out by sae size, such as those in the
> rubber donuts, were actually AN bolts.

Do you mean American National or Airforce/Navy? American National are
functionaly nearly the same as Unified, but both they and
Airforce/Navy
would be unobtainable in the UK in the 1960's, so they are something
else. Lotus had a close relationship with GKN, the major bolt
manufacturer in the UK, so specials would be no problem.


By AN I meant Airforce/Navy. The special bolts in the rubber donuts and a
couple other places are the Long grip versions of the UNF bolts that match
AN aircraft bolts. I replaced all the driveline and suspension bolts with
Aircraft ANx bolts so that the shear forces are on the shank not the
threads.

So while they may not have been specified as AN aircraft bolts by that
standard, today the closest thing available are AN bolts. I believe the one
for the rubber donuts in particular was an AN8-21 (1/2" 20tpi(UNF) 2 1/8"
long), but I can't find my spreadsheet with them at the moment so I can't
say for sure. Somewhere I have that spreadsheet with all the AN bolts for
the suspension and driveshafts.


Rob LaMoreaux

A & D Technology Inc.
4622 Runway Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI 48108
734-822-9696
Fax 734-973-1103
Main Desk 734-973-1111
www.AandDTech.com
Work email: ***@***.***
Home email: ***@***.***
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:17 pm

Robert D. LaMoreaux wrote:

How does BA relate to Whitworth?





Rob, there is no relationship between these two "standards", as you
would expect in the UK!
Whitworth tended not to be used for less than 1/4" o/d (due to it being
a fairly coarse thread, although there was a very rarely-seen fine
version) whilst B.A was used for less than that o/d. B.A was very useful
for metals such as brass, Mazak and alluminium die-castings.

Cheers,
Pete.
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PostPost by: mikecauser » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:48 pm

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:43:27 -0400 "Robert D. LaMoreaux" <***@***.***> wrote:

How does BA relate to Whitworth?

Not at all. Whitworth is 55degree and inch measurements, BA is
47.5degree and metric. Size nomenclature is based on shank dia for
Whitworth, and on an arbitrary scale for BA. However both have rounded
roots & crests, which is a Good Thing.


So while they may not have been specified as AN aircraft bolts by that
standard, today the closest thing available are AN bolts.

Not where I live. If /you/ live where you can get surplus AN stuff then
great, but most of the Lotus-owning world cannot. In theory those
doughnut bolts are very badly loaded, but in practice they seem to
survive well and last a long time. Can't say the same 'bout the
doughnuts ;-(


Side note: After buying ALL of Carroll Smith's books, the next thing a
Lotus owner should look for (esp in s/hand bookshops) is Machinery's
Handbook. The copy in my deskside bookshelf is the 1959 edition, but
there's a HUGE amount of information in there. About the only thing the
1959 copy doesn't help me with is developments in metals since then.
Oh, and it's all in inches, but that's OK, I've had many years practice
at converting.


Mike
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:59 pm

Mike,
Totally agree on the Machinery book. Another "must have" is the thing
that John Deere used to give to their apprentices (mine's in the loft so
I can't tell you the exact name) this is absolutely fabulous.

Rgds,
Pete.


Mike Causer wrote:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:43:27 -0400 "Robert D. LaMoreaux"
<***@***.*** <mailto:Rob_LaMoreaux%40ameritech.net>>
wrote:

> How does BA relate to Whitworth?

Not at all. Whitworth is 55degree and inch measurements, BA is
47.5degree and metric. Size nomenclature is based on shank dia for
Whitworth, and on an arbitrary scale for BA. However both have rounded
roots & crests, which is a Good Thing.

> So while they may not have been specified as AN aircraft bolts by that
> standard, today the closest thing available are AN bolts.

Not where I live. If /you/ live where you can get surplus AN stuff then
great, but most of the Lotus-owning world cannot. In theory those
doughnut bolts are very badly loaded, but in practice they seem to
survive well and last a long time. Can't say the same 'bout the
doughnuts ;-(

Side note: After buying ALL of Carroll Smith's books, the next thing a
Lotus owner should look for (esp in s/hand bookshops) is Machinery's
Handbook. The copy in my deskside bookshelf is the 1959 edition, but
there's a HUGE amount of information in there. About the only thing the
1959 copy doesn't help me with is developments in metals since then.
Oh, and it's all in inches, but that's OK, I've had many years practice
at converting.

Mike
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PostPost by: s2lola » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:02 pm

Mike,

Suppliers like Aircraft Spruce are brilliant at AN orders both on the phone
and online. They even have a variety of assembled AN kits for the hobbyist
- I bought one from them several years ago for the formula atlantic
restoration, and its been a godsend.

Cheers,
BT

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Mike Causer
Sent: 2006/09/12 17:48
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] SAE to Brit thread danger?


On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:43:27 -0400 "Robert D. LaMoreaux"
<***@***.***> wrote:

How does BA relate to Whitworth?

Not at all. Whitworth is 55degree and inch measurements, BA is 47.5degree
and metric. Size nomenclature is based on shank dia for
Whitworth, and on an arbitrary scale for BA. However both have rounded
roots & crests, which is a Good Thing.


So while they may not have been specified as AN aircraft bolts by that
standard, today the closest thing available are AN bolts.

Not where I live. If /you/ live where you can get surplus AN stuff then
great, but most of the Lotus-owning world cannot. In theory those doughnut
bolts are very badly loaded, but in practice they seem to survive well and
last a long time. Can't say the same 'bout the doughnuts ;-(


Side note: After buying ALL of Carroll Smith's books, the next thing a
Lotus owner should look for (esp in s/hand bookshops) is Machinery's
Handbook. The copy in my deskside bookshelf is the 1959 edition, but
there's a HUGE amount of information in there. About the only thing the
1959 copy doesn't help me with is developments in metals since then. Oh, and
it's all in inches, but that's OK, I've had many years practice at
converting.


Mike
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PostPost by: mikecauser » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:23 pm

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:12:19 +0100 Pete Taylor <***@***.***> wrote:

Rob, there is no relationship between these two "standards", as you
would expect in the UK!

Well, while I've got Machinery's Handbook off the shelf, are you
going to explain why American National, Unified, Unified Miniature,
American Standard Microscope, American Standard Acme, American Standard
Stub Acme, American Standard Buttress, S.A.E. Spark Plug, American
National Standard Hose, American National Standard Fire-Hose, American
Standard Taper Pipe, American Standard Straight Pipe are all so
different from each other?

The answer is that they all do different jobs, frequently in different
materials, and generally at different stresses or sizes. It's nothing
to do with the country that specified them, it's about the job they are
intended to do.


Mike
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