Pilot Bearings

[wgrainge]

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I now have the motor out. The clutch
and T/O bearing assembly look perfect. The pilot bushing looks REALLY
dry. I wouldn't be at all suprised if that is what was causing the
awful noise, though I'm not completely sure what it ought to look
like. It is an oilite bronze unit that only has maybe 100 miles on
it. I put some grease on it when it was assembled, but perhaps the
wrong type. Anyone have any thoughts on the correct lubricant?

-Will Grainger
45/9693

[gjz30075]

will,
What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
might help.

By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly and
only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing so
it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??

Greg Z
'72 Sprint

[wgrainge]

Greg,

I just read on some website that some greases can clog up the pores
on the bronze bearings and cause a rapid failure of the bearing. This
may be what happened to me. I used a white grease of some kind. I
will try the motor oil idea this time around. Thanks for the advice.

Regards,

Will G
45/9693

[dlbarnes1]

Will,
What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that information.
I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I hope that wasn't a mistake.

Dave - 72 Sprint DHC


----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Greg,

I just read on some website that some greases can clog up the pores
on the bronze bearings and cause a rapid failure of the bearing. This
may be what happened to me. I used a white grease of some kind. I
will try the motor oil idea this time around. Thanks for the advice.

Regards,

Will G
45/9693

>From: "Greg Zelazek" ***@***.***
>Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:32am(PDT)
>Subject: Re: Pilot Bearings
>
>will,
>What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
>motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
>might help.
>
>By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly and
>only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
>Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing so
>it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??
>
>Greg Z
>'72 Sprint








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[type36lotus]

I was told that the bronze bushing should be (not optional) soaked
in oil. If there is any doubt that you may have damaged your
existing bushing by greasing it I would replace it. Better that
then to have to pull the engine and trans yet again. Or worse have
it seize to something.

Mike

--- In ***@***.***, Will Grainger <lotuselan@...>
wrote:

[Guest]

To all using Oilite bushes

We use to use a lot of them in the Defence forces and the usual
treatment was to get a small container of oil put the bearing in and
heat it up preferably in an oven, then letting it cool down submerged in
the oil.

The main thing is to make sure that the oil is kept below flash point
100C/212F would be ok.

The idea was that the air in the pores expands and exits the bearing, so
as it cools oil is drawn in to replace it, thereby impregnating the bush
with oil.

Just soaking it in cold oil is nowhere near as effective.

Rod

Rodney Stevens
CSIRO Minerals
phone 02 9710 6701
Mobile 0432 506 427
Web: http://www.minerals.csiro.au/

Personal Web Page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rodjohnst ... mepage.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Behalf Of Michael Geiger
Sent: Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:09 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings

I was told that the bronze bushing should be (not optional) soaked
in oil. If there is any doubt that you may have damaged your
existing bushing by greasing it I would replace it. Better that
then to have to pull the engine and trans yet again. Or worse have
it seize to something.

Mike

--- In ***@***.***, Will Grainger <lotuselan@...>
wrote:

[wgrainge]

Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <dande@...>
wrote:


assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.

[Bill]

Will

I think you are referring to "Lubriplate" - a white coloured grease -I have used it for assembly in the past as well.

I like the idea of imersing the "oillite" bushing in hot sae 30 oil and cooling it down before assembly.

FORTUNATELY whatever I did (I can't remember) worked for me!

First in class at the Van Dusen ABFM again, no other early Elans, (sad) four 7's in the class, and a gaggle of Elises - a new class coming up I guess.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <dande@...>
wrote:
>
> Will,
> What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that
information.
> I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent
messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some
assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.
>
> Dave - 72 Sprint DHC












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[filipecharrua]

Greg,

You mentioned you too have that same noise occasionally and that you only
have 4k miles on all new components. May I ask how OLD those 4k miles
might be? And why would anyone let a needle bearing pilot bearing sit
overnight in oil?

Please note, Greg is a good friend of mine and my day wouldn't be complete
if I didn't rib him about something!

Sincerely,
Frank Filicicchia
Pronounced Fill-a-cheek-ee-a
IBM Territory Client Representative
7100 Highlands Parkway
Smyrna, GA 30082

Phone 770-863-1345

[wgrainge]

Bill,

The brand I used was "Kleen-flo" brand multipurpose sulfonate grease.
Comes in a tube and made in Canada. I'm sure that similar stuff is
sold under a variety of names.

I wish I was able to attend the All British Field Meet. I was
planning to visit as a spectator, but at the last minute decided to
devote the Saturday to removing my engine. I hope to get my Elan
there next year.

-Will

[Sking06]

I had a similar problem with my Elan about 10 years ago.... only much worse.
In addition to the horrible noise, the clutch would occasionally not
disengage. As though the shaft were seized on the bushing. I pulled the
engine and greased the bushing. It worked for awhile then returned. Pulled
the engine and installed a needle bearing. It worked for awhile then
returned. Pulled the engine, installed a bushing, honed an extra couple of
thou. It worked for awhile, you know the answer. Then I replaced the
clutch driven plate. That was 10 years ago and the problem has not returned.
I don't understand the physics, but something to consider.

Skip King

'69 Elan S4SE
'61 Seven S2

Measure it with a micrometer
Mark it with a grease pencil
Cut it with an ax (axe)

[fatboyoz]

Skip,
The pilot/spigot bearing located in the rear of the crankshaft is
there to support the forward end of the gearbox input shaft. There
should be no forward or aft movement of the shaft in this bearing,
and has no bearing on the clutch engagement/disengagement action. The
problem you had was probably a worn clutch driven plate that would no
longer slide on the splined, gearbox input shaft. Hence, problem
fixed with a new clutch plate. This is preferable to the problem I
once had, where the wear was on the splined input shaft. Easier to
replace the clutch plate than pull the gearbox apart.

Colin 68 S4.





--- In ***@***.***, "William \"Skip\" King"
<sking06@...> wrote:

[dlbarnes1]

Will - Thanks. Thats a curious message they convey. Do not grease oilite bearings because the grease will clog the pores in the oilite material. The pilot beaings come pregreased (??). In any event I would feel more comfortable if I had simply applied some oil as suggested. The ironic part is that I recently purchased a Fidanza aluminum flywheel and I didn't read their instructions throughly enough to catch the bit on the pilot bearing. I purchased the oilite pilot bearing elsewhere and I don't believe it was pregreased, whatever that means.
Dave - 72 Sprint DHC
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <dande@...>
wrote:
>
> Will,
> What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that
information.
> I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent
messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some
assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.
>
> Dave - 72 Sprint DHC












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[gjz30075]

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <dande@...> wrote:


Dave,
Don't get confused between a bushing and a bearing. The bearing, the
one with roller balls, or needles, with a cage, will take the grease.
The oilite is a bushing, looks like a solid bronze piece with a hole in
it, takes the oil.

Some bearings, when purchased new, come with some grease in them, ie,
pregreased. A pilot bearing, as opposed to a bushing, will be a
cylindrical shaped thing with needle rollers and should have a small
amount of grease in them.

Greg Z
'72 Sprint

[richboyd]

Bearing symantics:

Isn't anything that bears a load a bearing? Especially the load
between moving parts.

Aren't bushings just one type of bearing? As distinct from a
rolling-element bearing (ball, roller, etc.).

This reminds me of the "turbochargers aren't superchargers" assertion.


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