Lotus Elan

Pilot Bearings

PostPost by: Will Grainger » Sat May 20, 2006 9:11 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I now have the motor out. The clutch
and T/O bearing assembly look perfect. The pilot bushing looks REALLY
dry. I wouldn't be at all suprised if that is what was causing the
awful noise, though I'm not completely sure what it ought to look
like. It is an oilite bronze unit that only has maybe 100 miles on
it. I put some grease on it when it was assembled, but perhaps the
wrong type. Anyone have any thoughts on the correct lubricant?

-Will Grainger
45/9693


From: "elancoupe" ***@***.***
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 4:32pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: HELP! - Awful Clutch noise?

My car did this exact same thing some years back--- a brand new
pilot bushing malfunctioned, for whatever reason. A new bushing
fixed the problem.

BTW, the transmission can be removed without the engine, this
particular instance was the first time I did it that way. I have
done so twice, with just a floor jack for assistance.

Mike B
66 FHC RHD
Will Grainger
 

PostPost by: gjz30075 » Mon May 22, 2006 12:32 pm

will,
What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
might help.

By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly and
only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing so
it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??

Greg Z
'72 Sprint

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I now have the motor out. The clutch
and T/O bearing assembly look perfect. The pilot bushing looks
REALLY

dry. I wouldn't be at all suprised if that is what was causing the
awful noise, though I'm not completely sure what it ought to look
like. It is an oilite bronze unit that only has maybe 100 miles on
it. I put some grease on it when it was assembled, but perhaps the
wrong type. Anyone have any thoughts on the correct lubricant?

-Will Grainger
45/9693


>From: "elancoupe" [email protected]
> Date: Fri May 19, 2006 4:32pm(PDT)
>Subject: Re: HELP! - Awful Clutch noise?
>
> My car did this exact same thing some years back--- a brand new
>pilot bushing malfunctioned, for whatever reason. A new bushing
>fixed the problem.
>
>BTW, the transmission can be removed without the engine, this
>particular instance was the first time I did it that way. I have
>done so twice, with just a floor jack for assistance.
>
>Mike B
>66 FHC RHD
Greg Z
45/0243K Sprint
36/5727 pre airflow coupe
User avatar
gjz30075
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2975
Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Location: Roswell, Georgia, USA

PostPost by: Will Grainger » Mon May 22, 2006 9:40 pm

Greg,

I just read on some website that some greases can clog up the pores
on the bronze bearings and cause a rapid failure of the bearing. This
may be what happened to me. I used a white grease of some kind. I
will try the motor oil idea this time around. Thanks for the advice.

Regards,

Will G
45/9693

From: "Greg Zelazek" ***@***.***
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:32am(PDT)
Subject: Re: Pilot Bearings

will,
What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
might help.

By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly and
only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing so
it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??

Greg Z
'72 Sprint
Will Grainger
 

PostPost by: dlbarnes1 » Tue May 23, 2006 1:09 am

Will,
What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that information.
I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I hope that wasn't a mistake.

Dave - 72 Sprint DHC


----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Greg,

I just read on some website that some greases can clog up the pores
on the bronze bearings and cause a rapid failure of the bearing. This
may be what happened to me. I used a white grease of some kind. I
will try the motor oil idea this time around. Thanks for the advice.

Regards,

Will G
45/9693

>From: "Greg Zelazek" ***@***.***
>Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:32am(PDT)
>Subject: Re: Pilot Bearings
>
>will,
>What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
>motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
>might help.
>
>By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly and
>only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
>Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing so
>it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??
>
>Greg Z
>'72 Sprint








SPONSORED LINKS Plus Sprint Devoted
Impressions


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "lotuselan" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
***@***.***

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dlbarnes1
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 140
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Redding, Calif. USA

PostPost by: type36lotus » Tue May 23, 2006 2:09 am

I was told that the bronze bushing should be (not optional) soaked
in oil. If there is any doubt that you may have damaged your
existing bushing by greasing it I would replace it. Better that
then to have to pull the engine and trans yet again. Or worse have
it seize to something.

Mike

--- In ***@***.***, Will Grainger <[email protected]>
wrote:
Greg,

I just read on some website that some greases can clog up the
pores

on the bronze bearings and cause a rapid failure of the bearing.
This

may be what happened to me. I used a white grease of some kind. I
will try the motor oil idea this time around. Thanks for the
advice.


Regards,

Will G
45/9693

>From: "Greg Zelazek" [email protected]
>Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:32am(PDT)
>Subject: Re: Pilot Bearings
>
>will,
>What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
>motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
>might help.
>
>By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly
and

>only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
>Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing
so

>it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??
>
>Greg Z
>'72 Sprint
Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe', no more :-(
User avatar
type36lotus
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 577
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA

PostPost by: Guest » Tue May 23, 2006 4:07 am

To all using Oilite bushes

We use to use a lot of them in the Defence forces and the usual
treatment was to get a small container of oil put the bearing in and
heat it up preferably in an oven, then letting it cool down submerged in
the oil.

The main thing is to make sure that the oil is kept below flash point
100C/212F would be ok.

The idea was that the air in the pores expands and exits the bearing, so
as it cools oil is drawn in to replace it, thereby impregnating the bush
with oil.

Just soaking it in cold oil is nowhere near as effective.

Rod

Rodney Stevens
CSIRO Minerals
phone 02 9710 6701
Mobile 0432 506 427
Web: http://www.minerals.csiro.au/

Personal Web Page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rodjohnst ... mepage.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Behalf Of Michael Geiger
Sent: Tuesday, 23 May 2006 12:09 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings

I was told that the bronze bushing should be (not optional) soaked
in oil. If there is any doubt that you may have damaged your
existing bushing by greasing it I would replace it. Better that
then to have to pull the engine and trans yet again. Or worse have
it seize to something.

Mike

--- In ***@***.***, Will Grainger <[email protected]>
wrote:
Greg,

I just read on some website that some greases can clog up the
pores

on the bronze bearings and cause a rapid failure of the bearing.
This

may be what happened to me. I used a white grease of some kind. I
will try the motor oil idea this time around. Thanks for the
advice.


Regards,

Will G
45/9693

>From: "Greg Zelazek" [email protected]
>Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:32am(PDT)
>Subject: Re: Pilot Bearings
>
>will,
>What I've done with bronze bushings is to soak them overnight in
>motor oil. This is one of the ways to keep them 'oiled'. This
>might help.
>
>By the way, I, too, have the same noise but very intermittantly
and

>only when startup from cold. Exactly on clutch engagement, too.
>Only 4K on all new parts. My pilot bearing is a needle bearing
so

>it was greased. Maybe its dry by now??
>
>Greg Z
>'72 Sprint

Guest
 

PostPost by: "Will Grainger" » Tue May 23, 2006 6:58 pm

Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Will,
What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that
information.

I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent
messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some

assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.

Dave - 72 Sprint DHC
"Will Grainger"
 

PostPost by: Bill » Wed May 24, 2006 1:05 am

Will

I think you are referring to "Lubriplate" - a white coloured grease -I have used it for assembly in the past as well.

I like the idea of imersing the "oillite" bushing in hot sae 30 oil and cooling it down before assembly.

FORTUNATELY whatever I did (I can't remember) worked for me!

First in class at the Van Dusen ABFM again, no other early Elans, (sad) four 7's in the class, and a gaggle of Elises - a new class coming up I guess.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Will,
> What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that
information.
> I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent
messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some
assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.
>
> Dave - 72 Sprint DHC












------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "lotuselan" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
***@***.***

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



__________ NOD32 1.1553 (20060522) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com
Bill Rathlef
Vancouver Island, Canada
"Keep your stick on the ice, boys."
User avatar
Bill
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 659
Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada

PostPost by: Will Grainger » Thu May 25, 2006 1:03 am

Bill,

The brand I used was "Kleen-flo" brand multipurpose sulfonate grease.
Comes in a tube and made in Canada. I'm sure that similar stuff is
sold under a variety of names.

I wish I was able to attend the All British Field Meet. I was
planning to visit as a spectator, but at the last minute decided to
devote the Saturday to removing my engine. I hope to get my Elan
there next year.

-Will


From: "Bill Rathlef" ***@***.***
Date: Tue May 23, 2006 6:05pm(PDT)
Subject: Re: Pilot Bearings

Will

I think you are referring to "Lubriplate" - a white coloured grease
-I have used it for assembly in the past as well.

I like the idea of imersing the "oillite" bushing in hot sae 30 oil
and cooling it down before assembly.

FORTUNATELY whatever I did (I can't remember) worked for me!

First in class at the Van Dusen ABFM again, no other early Elans,
(sad) four 7's in the class, and a gaggle of Elises - a new class
coming up I guess.

Bill
Will Grainger
 

PostPost by: "William \"Skip » Thu May 25, 2006 2:10 am

I had a similar problem with my Elan about 10 years ago.... only much worse.
In addition to the horrible noise, the clutch would occasionally not
disengage. As though the shaft were seized on the bushing. I pulled the
engine and greased the bushing. It worked for awhile then returned. Pulled
the engine and installed a needle bearing. It worked for awhile then
returned. Pulled the engine, installed a bushing, honed an extra couple of
thou. It worked for awhile, you know the answer. Then I replaced the
clutch driven plate. That was 10 years ago and the problem has not returned.
I don't understand the physics, but something to consider.

Skip King

'69 Elan S4SE
'61 Seven S2

Measure it with a micrometer
Mark it with a grease pencil
Cut it with an ax (axe)
"William \"Skip
 

PostPost by: fatboyoz » Thu May 25, 2006 10:59 pm

Skip,
The pilot/spigot bearing located in the rear of the crankshaft is
there to support the forward end of the gearbox input shaft. There
should be no forward or aft movement of the shaft in this bearing,
and has no bearing on the clutch engagement/disengagement action. The
problem you had was probably a worn clutch driven plate that would no
longer slide on the splined, gearbox input shaft. Hence, problem
fixed with a new clutch plate. This is preferable to the problem I
once had, where the wear was on the splined input shaft. Easier to
replace the clutch plate than pull the gearbox apart.

Colin 68 S4.





--- In ***@***.***, "William \"Skip\" King"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I had a similar problem with my Elan about 10 years ago.... only
much worse.

In addition to the horrible noise, the clutch would occasionally
not

disengage. As though the shaft were seized on the bushing. I pulled
the

engine and greased the bushing. It worked for awhile then returned.
Pulled

the engine and installed a needle bearing. It worked for awhile
then

returned. Pulled the engine, installed a bushing, honed an extra
couple of

thou. It worked for awhile, you know the answer. Then I replaced
the

clutch driven plate. That was 10 years ago and the problem has not
returned.

I don't understand the physics, but something to consider.

Skip King

'69 Elan S4SE
'61 Seven S2

Measure it with a micrometer
Mark it with a grease pencil
Cut it with an ax (axe)
'68 S4 DHC
fatboyoz
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 605
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Location: Gold Coast QLD Australia

PostPost by: dlbarnes1 » Fri May 26, 2006 3:28 am

Will - Thanks. Thats a curious message they convey. Do not grease oilite bearings because the grease will clog the pores in the oilite material. The pilot beaings come pregreased (??). In any event I would feel more comfortable if I had simply applied some oil as suggested. The ironic part is that I recently purchased a Fidanza aluminum flywheel and I didn't read their instructions throughly enough to catch the bit on the pilot bearing. I purchased the oilite pilot bearing elsewhere and I don't believe it was pregreased, whatever that means.
Dave - 72 Sprint DHC
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Will,
> What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that
information.
> I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent
messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some
assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.
>
> Dave - 72 Sprint DHC












------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "lotuselan" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
***@***.***

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dlbarnes1
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 140
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Redding, Calif. USA

PostPost by: gjz30075 » Fri May 26, 2006 12:43 pm

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <[email protected]> wrote:
I purchased the oilite pilot bearing elsewhere and I don't believe it
was pregreased, whatever that means.

Dave - 72 Sprint DHC
----- Original Message -----

Dave,
Don't get confused between a bushing and a bearing. The bearing, the
one with roller balls, or needles, with a cage, will take the grease.
The oilite is a bushing, looks like a solid bronze piece with a hole in
it, takes the oil.

Some bearings, when purchased new, come with some grease in them, ie,
pregreased. A pilot bearing, as opposed to a bushing, will be a
cylindrical shaped thing with needle rollers and should have a small
amount of grease in them.

Greg Z
'72 Sprint
Greg Z
45/0243K Sprint
36/5727 pre airflow coupe
User avatar
gjz30075
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2975
Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Location: Roswell, Georgia, USA

PostPost by: richboyd » Fri May 26, 2006 5:30 pm

Bearing symantics:

Isn't anything that bears a load a bearing? Especially the load
between moving parts.

Aren't bushings just one type of bearing? As distinct from a
rolling-element bearing (ball, roller, etc.).

This reminds me of the "turbochargers aren't superchargers" assertion.


In response to:

Don't get confused between a bushing and a bearing. The bearing, the
one with roller balls, or needles, with a cage, will take the grease.
The oilite is a bushing, looks like a solid bronze piece with a hole in
it, takes the oil.

Some bearings, when purchased new, come with some grease in them, ie,
pregreased. A pilot bearing, as opposed to a bushing, will be a
cylindrical shaped thing with needle rollers and should have a small
amount of grease in them.
User avatar
richboyd
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 272
Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Location: Seattle

PostPost by: Bill Barry » Fri May 26, 2006 7:41 pm

This string of e-mails seems to be full of confusion - or else I've lost the
plot completely (quite possible!). Although both are bearings, a needle,
roller, or ball bearing is made of hardened steel rollers/balls in a
hardened steel race. New bearings, especially sealed bearings often come
pre-greased. The operative word here is grease. Oilite bushes/bushings, on
the other hand are a one-part sintered metal - usually bronze- sort of
sleeve. They are like a hard sponge and must be soaked with oil - operative
word oil. It does indeed make sense that the pores of the oilite bush
should not be clogged with grease or the oil cannot leech out and do its
job. Am I making this topic clearer for anyone or only more confusing?

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Behalf Of David Barnes
Sent: 26 May 2006 04:29
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Will - Thanks. Thats a curious message they convey. Do not grease oilite
bearings because the grease will clog the pores in the oilite material. The
pilot beaings come pregreased (??). In any event I would feel more
comfortable if I had simply applied some oil as suggested. The ironic part
is that I recently purchased a Fidanza aluminum flywheel and I didn't read
their instructions throughly enough to catch the bit on the pilot bearing. I
purchased the oilite pilot bearing elsewhere and I don't believe it was
pregreased, whatever that means.
Dave - 72 Sprint DHC
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Grainger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Pilot Bearings


Dave,

Here's the website (a pdf file actually):

http://www.fidanza.com/Files/clutches.pdf

There's not a lot of info here, but it does make this claim:

"Do not grease new pilots. New pilot bearings come pre-
greased (often with special synthetic grease). Bronze pilot
bushings have oil in the pores of the material that grease will
clog. For bushings, a few drops of 30W oil can be used if
desired."

I've no idea whether they know what they are talking about or not.

I'd bet that assembly lube is probably OK, but I don't really know.
The problematic grease that I used was some type of white
grease (which I previously used with no problem on a needle-
bearing unit). I don't have the name/exact type handy at the
moment, but it said on the tube that it was recommended for a
variety of applications including engine assembly, etc.

Good luck.

-Will Grainger
45/9693

--- In ***@***.***, "David Barnes" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Will,
> What was that website? I would be interested in seeing that
information.
> I put my engine back in yesterday, and after reading the recent
messages on oilite bronze pilot bearings, I wiped some
assembly lube on the bearing just prior to the engine going in. I
hope that wasn't a mistake.
>
> Dave - 72 Sprint DHC












----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "lotuselan" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
***@***.***

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Bill Barry
 
Next

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: jebracing and 10 guests