GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS

PostPost by: marcfuller » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:44 pm

Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-

Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It has to do
with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are missing
friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc dialkyl
dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP friction
modifiers.

There is a very relevant article in June's Hot Rod mag titled "Cam Info You
Need, Why are flat-tappet cams getting wasted more frequently these days?
You'll be surprised by the answer. " page 124. (Some of the article
photos look a lot like yours.)

Suggestions include using Racing Oils, using light duty Diesel Oils like
Rotella, using a friction modifier additive and hoarding non-SM oils.

-Marc



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PostPost by: M100 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:38 pm

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:44:41 -0600, Marc Fuller wrote:


So just about every engine that doesn't use rockers direct off the cam
is now doomed to failure by running on modern oils?

Is the full text of this article available online?

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PostPost by: marcfuller » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:34 pm

According to the article it is engines which use flat tappets or
lifters The engines that are not troubled by the new oils use roller cams.

The article text is not on Hot Rod's website just a reference to it as in
the June issue, at this time it is mag only. It is worth purchasing if you
find a news stand that stocks the issue in the UK. I have OCR scanned the
just the portion pertinent motor to oils (sans photos) and will email it to
you directly. The article also covers cam and tappet metallurgy.

At 03:37 PM 4/18/2006, you wrote:
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PostPost by: poiuyt » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:30 pm

Thanks for the thought, but I think we found the reason for the
problem.

The #1 intake lost it's gap, I suppose from a bit of recession into
the head, which did not allow any lubrication to get berween the
tappet and cam. This was demonstrated when I put the new tappet in
with the original shim and had no gap at all. However, turning the
engine by hand copmpletly cleaned all of the pre-lube off the cam
and tappet, unlike the other intakes, which kept a coating of oil.

I installed a new shim and got a .008 gap - on the high side, but
close enough. All of the other intake gaps were at about .004, so I
re-gapped them to .007 to .008. All of the exhausts were at .008
to .009.

The engine runs fine now.

I find it hard to believe that Mobil One was the problem. My 1989
Golf had over 130,000 miles when I traded it and my current GTI-VR6
recently passed 200,000 miles with no problems at all.

We use it in every 4-cycle engine we have, including the
motorcycles, lawn mower and weed trimmer.

Steve B


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PostPost by: marcfuller » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:56 pm

If you read the article you will see that the oils while carrying the same
name brand (even Mobile One) have been significantly reformulated over the
last few years to preserve long-term operation of the catalytic converters.
The zinc and phosphorus ZDDP can shorten the life of the cat as the engine
wears. The 2005 SM grade oils have 20%+ less friction modifiers than the
2004 SL grade oils, and 33% less than the 1996 SH grade oils. Interestingly
the 2005 SM oils have less than 50% of the friction modifiers present in
the current (2006) formulations of Quaker State and Pennzoil racing oils.

The reason that this is being encouraged is that newer (~post 2003) engines
in the US are not compromised by the SM oils due to the wide-spread use of
rollers instead of flat tappets.


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PostPost by: steveww » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:27 am

How about using something like "Slick 50" with a regular oil to help
with the friction thing?

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PostPost by: M100 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:23 am

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:23:04 +0100, Steve Waterworth wrote:


Spend your money on beer. In extensive research carried out by many
universities and scientific bodies over the years It has been
scientifically proven to have a more beneficial effect on engine
friction than Slick 50.

As an alternative, teetotalers may wish to sacrifice a goat at
midnight under a full moon. Vegetarian teetotalers can dance naked
for 38 minutes 23.4 seconds in a meadow full of daises to achieve the
same effect.

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PostPost by: frearther » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:42 pm

I vote for the beer option. Any particular brand?

Art
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PostPost by: ericsalomon » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:59 pm

Hmmm....... I would prefer whiskey. Won't cause (carb) frothing!



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To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS



I vote for the beer option. Any particular brand?

Art
26/4934

At 06:21 AM 4/20/2006, you wrote:

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PostPost by: poiuyt » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:16 pm

I bought the magazine and read the entire article. It seems to be
aimed at folks with modified engines and race-type cams, not stock.
Also, they talk about a problem with oil not getting to the tappet -
one of the tappets they show as a replacement is drilled at the top
to allow oil to flow to the top of the tappet.

In my case there was a constant pool of oil on the top of the
tappets, and the one that failed was where the oil for the intake cam
first enters the head. None of the other tappets were worn. As I
stated in a past e-mail, the problem was zero gap, which caused the
cam to wipe off any oil and no new oil could get between the tappet
and the lobe.

By the way, my 1996 VW GTI-VR6, which is a twin cam with flat topped
tappets, passed 200,000 miles a few weeks back with no problems -
everything is original. And it has been run on Mobil 1 since 13,000
miles, when I bought the car.

I'll stick with the Mobil 1 and take my chances.

Steve B



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PostPost by: poiuyt » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:26 pm

YOU ARE THE MAN!

Steve B.



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PostPost by: marcfuller » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:20 pm

Exactly "modified engines and race-type cams". While people who modify
older engines is the target market of Hot Rod, and it is also the reality
of our Elans' Twin Cams which are highly modified for higher performance
but based on simple old Ford engines. Our Twin Cams when compared to their
origin are modified engines and race-type cams. I have read reference to
the block we use, because of the broad applications and range of high
performance mods it has seen, as the 4 cylinder equivalent of the Chevy V8
small block.

In relation to oil - the point of the article is that today's API approved
oils (regardless of brand and type, even Mobil 1) are not the same formula
they were in the recent past ... due to changing emissions standards and
current engine component design. This is meaningful because our Twin Cams
are products of the past, which today's API oil formulas are not designed
to support.

I think in a few months/years we will see the advent of motor oils marketed
for vintage performance engines, which will have ZDDP friction modifier
formulas similar to the pre-2001 oils or today's racing oil and motorcycle
oils.

At 10:15 AM 4/21/2006, you wrote:
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PostPost by: s2lola » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:53 pm

Gents,

This seems to be a pretty easy question to get answered. We have a lot of
twin cam racers out there - are any of them currently using Mobil 1 (the new
reformulated version), and how is it working for them? Failing that, has
anyone had the dialogue with the pro race engine builders like Ivey,
Quicksilver and others (I don't know who the really good twin cam guys are,
but the Forum sure does) who are making their living building these (among
other) engines?

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt



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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:10 am

--- In ***@***.***, "Tebbutt, Bill" <bill.tebbutt@...>
wrote:




Bill
I have replied to this more fully on LotusElan.net. In summary I
personally dont think the issue of reducing EP levels in modern oils
is a significant problem for us twin cam people provided other normal
build quality standards and running in precautions are taken. The
only time I would be concerned for a twin cam was if I was running a
full race engine with steel cams and buckets, with a high lift cam
and heavy springs and even then its probably only during the initial
running in where you need the high levels of EP additives in the oil.
I have run Mobil 1 in these types of engines for years without
problems provided the cam and bucket hardness was right and the
running in was done right.

Off course I could be wrong !!! but if it was a real problem in twin
cams in terms of engine failures in road engines it would have come
to light on the forums and it has not. Maybe their is a whole bunch
of potential failures out there just growing quietly but lots of
people play with these engines all the time and I am sure they would
have seen something by now.

The cam and bucket design of a Lotus twin cam is still modern and
used by many modern twin cam engines and I dont see many people
complaining about their toyotas or VW's engines wearing out too
quickly

I have not read the article yet and journalists often simplify
problems such as this to make a good headline. I am sure there are
elements of truth in what they are saying, the real question is
whether this is relevant to our engines compared to lots of other
potential causes of premature cam or bucket failures.

Chev V8's stress their cam to bucket follower interface much more
than a Lotus does with their big valves and heavy valve trains and
agressive cam profiles in the competition engines to try to
compensate for all the other breathing constraints in the head. The
inverted followers also dont live in the sea of oil on their running
surface like the Lotus ones do. Maybe the problem is just specific to
that style of engine

regards
Rohan

PS but its a good topic for forum discssuions as everyone always has
an opinion on oils ;)
In God I trust.... All others please bring data
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PostPost by: G. Strickfaden » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:53 am

You're right, Rohan, everybody likes to spread oil gossip. I can
attest that the cam-to-follower interface is the most highly loaded
region in a TC. Almost 30 years ago (egad!!) I was racing a TC-powered
CSR Elva Mk 7. Thinking I was catching the wave of tribology tech, I
tried some newfangled synthetic oil, Amzoil (before it became Amsoil).
Cam buckets (steel, Alfa Romeo) would not last a weekend - demonstrated
every time for several races. In desperation I switched back to
Valvoline Racing dino lube and the problem completely vanished.

Synthetic has definitely improved in the interim. Just a few years ago
I ran my Elan vintage racer with Valvoline synthetic 20W-50 with no
wear on the buckets after several weekends. Believe me, I checked
often. I wouldn't hesitate to use it again at this point, but this
thread about reduced EP capacity is fascinating and we should be
vigilant.

Gerry
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