Lotus Elan

GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS

PostPost by: marcfuller » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:44 pm

Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-

Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It has to do
with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are missing
friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc dialkyl
dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP friction
modifiers.

There is a very relevant article in June's Hot Rod mag titled "Cam Info You
Need, Why are flat-tappet cams getting wasted more frequently these days?
You'll be surprised by the answer. " page 124. (Some of the article
photos look a lot like yours.)

Suggestions include using Racing Oils, using light duty Diesel Oils like
Rotella, using a friction modifier additive and hoarding non-SM oils.

-Marc



At 07:46 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote:
"Steve B" <***@***.***> wrote:
> (Snip)...
> I'm guessing the tappet was defective because
> there was no shortage of oil in the head.


Steve,

Wow! That's much more erosion than I was expecting... sorta re-defines
"groove". Trench, maybe. There's a lot of metal missing and it had no
where to go but into the engine. Regardless of how localized the original
damage is found to be, there should be real concern for the collateral
damage all the bits of iron could still do in the future if not removed.

A proper fix should involve an engine tear down and thorough cleaning. All
the oil passages, the hollow parts (cams, crank, etc), the oil pump, the
oil cooler and hoses... everything the circulating oil touches must be
cleaned. Brushed, not just flushed.

It's a leap to assume the tappet is the root cause simply because there was
no shortage of oil. I suspect there's more at work in there than just
friction/wear and I'm not confident that replacing that tappet will correct
the problem. If the valve was replaced, measure it to make sure the
retainer groove wasn't cut too low. If the valve spring was replaced,
measure it's compressed-solid length to make sure it's not too long.
Either of those conditions could cause the spring to go coil-bound before
the cam reaches full-open, and that would put huge loads into the tappet
and cam. Enough to crack the hardened top surface and cause it to flake
out.

The tappets are surface-hardened. If it was an original tappet that had
worked for years, then there's a low probability of it suddenly going soft
and wearing like that. If it was a replacement tappet that was dead soft
(defective), then it could have worn to that point in a short time. Have
an undamaged surface on the tappet checked for hardness. If it's hard,
then you need to be looking for other culprits before you re-assemble the
engine and call it good.

The top of a good tappet should appear smooth/ polished. In the photo,
the tappet's top surface looks "grainy". Like what you would see in the
fractured edge of a broken cast iron part. Is that what it really looks
like? Or am I seeing something else like oil deposits (that doesn't make
sense either). If the thin, case-hardened top surface cracked, flaked out
and exposed the plain cast iron below, then that sub-surface would wear
quickly. Again, in that case you would really want to know where those bits
of hardened surface went. They cannot be left in the engine.


"Steve B" <***@***.***> wrote:
> By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I
> could not get enough slack to lift the chain off the gear,
> even though I backed the adjuster all the way out.

As mentioned before, the idea isn't to remove the chain from the sprocket.
Rather to lift the cam, sprocket and chain up out of the bearing journals as
far as full tensioner slack will allow. Then lift the back end of the cam
higher yet, tilting the cam "tail high" to clear all but the front
bearing cap studs. Then swing the back of the cam toward the center of the
head and lay the cam down at an angle between studs with the sprocket still
meshed with the chain. Pad the stud threads and the head with rags to
protect the cam lobes and bearing journals.

But it's certainly a good procedure to dismantle everything. That for sure
forces the issue of re-timing the cams from scratch, and that's a good
thing.

Tim



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve B" <***@***.***>
To: <***@***.***>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:58 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS


> I just added an album called TWIN CAM TAPPET with scans of the grooved
> tappet I pulled out of the engine on Saturday. None of the other
> tappeta are damaged and the cam lobe is ok.
>
> I'm guessing the tappet was defective because there was no shortage of
> oil in the head.
>
> By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I could not get
> enough slack to lift the chain off the gear, even though I backed the
> adjuster all the way out. Did not give me any problem at all - let's
> hope it goes back the same way!
>
> I have the chain wedged in place with a block of wood to keep it on all
> of the other gears.
-Marc '66 Elan DHC (36/6025)
http://www.lotuselan.us
marcfuller
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 254
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Location: Monument, Colorado

PostPost by: M100 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:38 pm

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:44:41 -0600, Marc Fuller wrote:

Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-

Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It has to do
with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are missing
friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc dialkyl
dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP friction
modifiers.

So just about every engine that doesn't use rockers direct off the cam
is now doomed to failure by running on modern oils?

Is the full text of this article available online?

--
Martin
72/45
--
Martin
72 Sprint DHC
User avatar
M100
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 766
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Location: Yorkshire

PostPost by: marcfuller » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:34 pm

According to the article it is engines which use flat tappets or
lifters The engines that are not troubled by the new oils use roller cams.

The article text is not on Hot Rod's website just a reference to it as in
the June issue, at this time it is mag only. It is worth purchasing if you
find a news stand that stocks the issue in the UK. I have OCR scanned the
just the portion pertinent motor to oils (sans photos) and will email it to
you directly. The article also covers cam and tappet metallurgy.

At 03:37 PM 4/18/2006, you wrote:
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:44:41 -0600, Marc Fuller wrote:

>Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-
>
>Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It has to do
>with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are missing
>friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc dialkyl
>dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
>goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP friction
>modifiers.

So just about every engine that doesn't use rockers direct off the cam
is now doomed to failure by running on modern oils?

Is the full text of this article available online?

--
Martin
72/45
--
-Marc '66 Elan DHC (36/6025)
http://www.lotuselan.us
marcfuller
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 254
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Location: Monument, Colorado

PostPost by: poiuyt » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:30 pm

Thanks for the thought, but I think we found the reason for the
problem.

The #1 intake lost it's gap, I suppose from a bit of recession into
the head, which did not allow any lubrication to get berween the
tappet and cam. This was demonstrated when I put the new tappet in
with the original shim and had no gap at all. However, turning the
engine by hand copmpletly cleaned all of the pre-lube off the cam
and tappet, unlike the other intakes, which kept a coating of oil.

I installed a new shim and got a .008 gap - on the high side, but
close enough. All of the other intake gaps were at about .004, so I
re-gapped them to .007 to .008. All of the exhausts were at .008
to .009.

The engine runs fine now.

I find it hard to believe that Mobil One was the problem. My 1989
Golf had over 130,000 miles when I traded it and my current GTI-VR6
recently passed 200,000 miles with no problems at all.

We use it in every 4-cycle engine we have, including the
motorcycles, lawn mower and weed trimmer.

Steve B


--- In ***@***.***, Marc Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:

Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-

Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It
has to do

with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are
missing

friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc
dialkyl

dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP
friction

modifiers.

There is a very relevant article in June's Hot Rod mag titled "Cam
Info You

Need, Why are flat-tappet cams getting wasted more frequently
these days?

You'll be surprised by the answer. " page 124. (Some of the
article

photos look a lot like yours.)

Suggestions include using Racing Oils, using light duty Diesel
Oils like

Rotella, using a friction modifier additive and hoarding non-SM
oils.


-Marc



At 07:46 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote:
>"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > (Snip)...
> > I'm guessing the tappet was defective because
> > there was no shortage of oil in the head.
>
>
>Steve,
>
>Wow! That's much more erosion than I was expecting... sorta re-
defines

>"groove". Trench, maybe. There's a lot of metal missing and
it had no

>where to go but into the engine. Regardless of how localized
the original

>damage is found to be, there should be real concern for the
collateral

>damage all the bits of iron could still do in the future if not
removed.

>
>A proper fix should involve an engine tear down and thorough
cleaning. All

>the oil passages, the hollow parts (cams, crank, etc), the oil
pump, the

>oil cooler and hoses... everything the circulating oil touches
must be

>cleaned. Brushed, not just flushed.
>
>It's a leap to assume the tappet is the root cause simply because
there was

>no shortage of oil. I suspect there's more at work in there
than just

>friction/wear and I'm not confident that replacing that tappet
will correct

>the problem. If the valve was replaced, measure it to make
sure the

>retainer groove wasn't cut too low. If the valve spring was
replaced,

>measure it's compressed-solid length to make sure it's not too
long.

>Either of those conditions could cause the spring to go coil-
bound before

>the cam reaches full-open, and that would put huge loads into
the tappet

>and cam. Enough to crack the hardened top surface and cause it
to flake

>out.
>
>The tappets are surface-hardened. If it was an original tappet
that had

>worked for years, then there's a low probability of it suddenly
going soft

>and wearing like that. If it was a replacement tappet that was
dead soft

>(defective), then it could have worn to that point in a short
time. Have

>an undamaged surface on the tappet checked for hardness. If
it's hard,

>then you need to be looking for other culprits before you re-
assemble the

>engine and call it good.
>
>The top of a good tappet should appear smooth/ polished. In the
photo,

>the tappet's top surface looks "grainy". Like what you would
see in the

>fractured edge of a broken cast iron part. Is that what it
really looks

>like? Or am I seeing something else like oil deposits (that
doesn't make

>sense either). If the thin, case-hardened top surface cracked,
flaked out

>and exposed the plain cast iron below, then that sub-surface
would wear

>quickly. Again, in that case you would really want to know where
those bits

>of hardened surface went. They cannot be left in the engine.
>
>
>"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I
> > could not get enough slack to lift the chain off the gear,
> > even though I backed the adjuster all the way out.
>
>As mentioned before, the idea isn't to remove the chain from the
sprocket.

>Rather to lift the cam, sprocket and chain up out of the bearing
journals as

>far as full tensioner slack will allow. Then lift the back end
of the cam

>higher yet, tilting the cam "tail high" to clear all but the
front

>bearing cap studs. Then swing the back of the cam toward the
center of the

>head and lay the cam down at an angle between studs with the
sprocket still

>meshed with the chain. Pad the stud threads and the head with
rags to

>protect the cam lobes and bearing journals.
>
>But it's certainly a good procedure to dismantle everything.
That for sure

>forces the issue of re-timing the cams from scratch, and that's
a good

>thing.
>
>Tim
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve B" <[email protected]>
>To: <***@***.***>
>Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:58 PM
>Subject: [LotusElan.net] GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS
>
>
> > I just added an album called TWIN CAM TAPPET with scans of the
grooved

> > tappet I pulled out of the engine on Saturday. None of the
other

> > tappeta are damaged and the cam lobe is ok.
> >
> > I'm guessing the tappet was defective because there was no
shortage of

> > oil in the head.
> >
> > By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I could not
get

> > enough slack to lift the chain off the gear, even though I
backed the

> > adjuster all the way out. Did not give me any problem at all -
let's

> > hope it goes back the same way!
> >
> > I have the chain wedged in place with a block of wood to keep
it on all

> > of the other gears.




Steve B.<br>1969 Elan S4
poiuyt
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 346
Joined: 23 Feb 2004

PostPost by: marcfuller » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:56 pm

If you read the article you will see that the oils while carrying the same
name brand (even Mobile One) have been significantly reformulated over the
last few years to preserve long-term operation of the catalytic converters.
The zinc and phosphorus ZDDP can shorten the life of the cat as the engine
wears. The 2005 SM grade oils have 20%+ less friction modifiers than the
2004 SL grade oils, and 33% less than the 1996 SH grade oils. Interestingly
the 2005 SM oils have less than 50% of the friction modifiers present in
the current (2006) formulations of Quaker State and Pennzoil racing oils.

The reason that this is being encouraged is that newer (~post 2003) engines
in the US are not compromised by the SM oils due to the wide-spread use of
rollers instead of flat tappets.


At 01:26 PM 4/19/2006, you wrote:
Thanks for the thought, but I think we found the reason for the
problem.

The #1 intake lost it's gap, I suppose from a bit of recession into
the head, which did not allow any lubrication to get berween the
tappet and cam. This was demonstrated when I put the new tappet in
with the original shim and had no gap at all. However, turning the
engine by hand copmpletly cleaned all of the pre-lube off the cam
and tappet, unlike the other intakes, which kept a coating of oil.

I installed a new shim and got a .008 gap - on the high side, but
close enough. All of the other intake gaps were at about .004, so I
re-gapped them to .007 to .008. All of the exhausts were at .008
to .009.

The engine runs fine now.

I find it hard to believe that Mobil One was the problem. My 1989
Golf had over 130,000 miles when I traded it and my current GTI-VR6
recently passed 200,000 miles with no problems at all.

We use it in every 4-cycle engine we have, including the
motorcycles, lawn mower and weed trimmer.

Steve B


--- In ***@***.***, Marc Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-
>
> Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It
has to do
> with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are
missing
> friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc
dialkyl
> dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
> goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP
friction
> modifiers.
>
> There is a very relevant article in June's Hot Rod mag titled "Cam
Info You
> Need, Why are flat-tappet cams getting wasted more frequently
these days?
> You'll be surprised by the answer. " page 124. (Some of the
article
> photos look a lot like yours.)
>
> Suggestions include using Racing Oils, using light duty Diesel
Oils like
> Rotella, using a friction modifier additive and hoarding non-SM
oils.
>
> -Marc
>
>
>
> At 07:46 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote:
> >"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > (Snip)...
> > > I'm guessing the tappet was defective because
> > > there was no shortage of oil in the head.
> >
> >
> >Steve,
> >
> >Wow! That's much more erosion than I was expecting... sorta re-
defines
> >"groove". Trench, maybe. There's a lot of metal missing and
it had no
> >where to go but into the engine. Regardless of how localized
the original
> >damage is found to be, there should be real concern for the
collateral
> >damage all the bits of iron could still do in the future if not
removed.
> >
> >A proper fix should involve an engine tear down and thorough
cleaning. All
> >the oil passages, the hollow parts (cams, crank, etc), the oil
pump, the
> >oil cooler and hoses... everything the circulating oil touches
must be
> >cleaned. Brushed, not just flushed.
> >
> >It's a leap to assume the tappet is the root cause simply because
there was
> >no shortage of oil. I suspect there's more at work in there
than just
> >friction/wear and I'm not confident that replacing that tappet
will correct
> >the problem. If the valve was replaced, measure it to make
sure the
> >retainer groove wasn't cut too low. If the valve spring was
replaced,
> >measure it's compressed-solid length to make sure it's not too
long.
> >Either of those conditions could cause the spring to go coil-
bound before
> >the cam reaches full-open, and that would put huge loads into
the tappet
> >and cam. Enough to crack the hardened top surface and cause it
to flake
> >out.
> >
> >The tappets are surface-hardened. If it was an original tappet
that had
> >worked for years, then there's a low probability of it suddenly
going soft
> >and wearing like that. If it was a replacement tappet that was
dead soft
> >(defective), then it could have worn to that point in a short
time. Have
> >an undamaged surface on the tappet checked for hardness. If
it's hard,
> >then you need to be looking for other culprits before you re-
assemble the
> >engine and call it good.
> >
> >The top of a good tappet should appear smooth/ polished. In the
photo,
> >the tappet's top surface looks "grainy". Like what you would
see in the
> >fractured edge of a broken cast iron part. Is that what it
really looks
> >like? Or am I seeing something else like oil deposits (that
doesn't make
> >sense either). If the thin, case-hardened top surface cracked,
flaked out
> >and exposed the plain cast iron below, then that sub-surface
would wear
> >quickly. Again, in that case you would really want to know where
those bits
> >of hardened surface went. They cannot be left in the engine.
> >
> >
> >"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I
> > > could not get enough slack to lift the chain off the gear,
> > > even though I backed the adjuster all the way out.
> >
> >As mentioned before, the idea isn't to remove the chain from the
sprocket.
> >Rather to lift the cam, sprocket and chain up out of the bearing
journals as
> >far as full tensioner slack will allow. Then lift the back end
of the cam
> >higher yet, tilting the cam "tail high" to clear all but the
front
> >bearing cap studs. Then swing the back of the cam toward the
center of the
> >head and lay the cam down at an angle between studs with the
sprocket still
> >meshed with the chain. Pad the stud threads and the head with
rags to
> >protect the cam lobes and bearing journals.
> >
> >But it's certainly a good procedure to dismantle everything.
That for sure
> >forces the issue of re-timing the cams from scratch, and that's
a good
> >thing.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Steve B" <[email protected]>
> >To: <***@***.***>
> >Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:58 PM
> >Subject: [LotusElan.net] GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS
> >
> >
> > > I just added an album called TWIN CAM TAPPET with scans of the
grooved
> > > tappet I pulled out of the engine on Saturday. None of the
other
> > > tappeta are damaged and the cam lobe is ok.
> > >
> > > I'm guessing the tappet was defective because there was no
shortage of
> > > oil in the head.
> > >
> > > By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I could not
get
> > > enough slack to lift the chain off the gear, even though I
backed the
> > > adjuster all the way out. Did not give me any problem at all -
let's
> > > hope it goes back the same way!
> > >
> > > I have the chain wedged in place with a block of wood to keep
it on all
> > > of the other gears.
>
>
>
>











-Marc '66 Elan DHC (36/6025)
http://www.lotuselan.us
marcfuller
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 254
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Location: Monument, Colorado

PostPost by: steveww » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:27 am

How about using something like "Slick 50" with a regular oil to help
with the friction thing?

Marc Fuller wrote:
If you read the article you will see that the oils while carrying the same
name brand (even Mobile One) have been significantly reformulated over the
last few years to preserve long-term operation of the catalytic converters.
The zinc and phosphorus ZDDP can shorten the life of the cat as the engine
wears. The 2005 SM grade oils have 20%+ less friction modifiers than the
2004 SL grade oils, and 33% less than the 1996 SH grade oils. Interestingly
the 2005 SM oils have less than 50% of the friction modifiers present in
the current (2006) formulations of Quaker State and Pennzoil racing oils.

The reason that this is being encouraged is that newer (~post 2003) engines
in the US are not compromised by the SM oils due to the wide-spread use of
rollers instead of flat tappets.


At 01:26 PM 4/19/2006, you wrote:
>Thanks for the thought, but I think we found the reason for the
>problem.
>
>The #1 intake lost it's gap, I suppose from a bit of recession into
>the head, which did not allow any lubrication to get berween the
>tappet and cam. This was demonstrated when I put the new tappet in
>with the original shim and had no gap at all. However, turning the
>engine by hand copmpletly cleaned all of the pre-lube off the cam
>and tappet, unlike the other intakes, which kept a coating of oil.
>
>I installed a new shim and got a .008 gap - on the high side, but
>close enough. All of the other intake gaps were at about .004, so I
>re-gapped them to .007 to .008. All of the exhausts were at .008
>to .009.
>
>The engine runs fine now.
>
>I find it hard to believe that Mobil One was the problem. My 1989
>Golf had over 130,000 miles when I traded it and my current GTI-VR6
>recently passed 200,000 miles with no problems at all.
>
>We use it in every 4-cycle engine we have, including the
>motorcycles, lawn mower and weed trimmer.
>
>Steve B
>
>
>--- In ***@***.***, Marc Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-
>>
>>Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It
>has to do
>>with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are
>missing
>>friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc
>dialkyl
>>dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
>>goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP
>friction
>>modifiers.
>>
>>There is a very relevant article in June's Hot Rod mag titled "Cam
>Info You
>>Need, Why are flat-tappet cams getting wasted more frequently
>these days?
>>You'll be surprised by the answer. " page 124. (Some of the
>article
>>photos look a lot like yours.)
>>
>>Suggestions include using Racing Oils, using light duty Diesel
>Oils like
>>Rotella, using a friction modifier additive and hoarding non-SM
>oils.
>> -Marc
>>
>>
>>
>>At 07:46 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote:
>>>"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>(Snip)...
>>>>I'm guessing the tappet was defective because
>>>>there was no shortage of oil in the head.
>>>
>>>Steve,
>>>
>>>Wow! That's much more erosion than I was expecting... sorta re-
>defines
>>>"groove". Trench, maybe. There's a lot of metal missing and
>it had no
>>>where to go but into the engine. Regardless of how localized
>the original
>>>damage is found to be, there should be real concern for the
>collateral
>>>damage all the bits of iron could still do in the future if not
>removed.
>>>A proper fix should involve an engine tear down and thorough
>cleaning. All
>>>the oil passages, the hollow parts (cams, crank, etc), the oil
>pump, the
>>>oil cooler and hoses... everything the circulating oil touches
>must be
>>>cleaned. Brushed, not just flushed.
>>>
>>>It's a leap to assume the tappet is the root cause simply because
>there was
>>>no shortage of oil. I suspect there's more at work in there
>than just
>>>friction/wear and I'm not confident that replacing that tappet
>will correct
>>>the problem. If the valve was replaced, measure it to make
>sure the
>>>retainer groove wasn't cut too low. If the valve spring was
>replaced,
>>>measure it's compressed-solid length to make sure it's not too
>long.
>>>Either of those conditions could cause the spring to go coil-
>bound before
>>>the cam reaches full-open, and that would put huge loads into
>the tappet
>>>and cam. Enough to crack the hardened top surface and cause it
>to flake
>>>out.
>>>
>>>The tappets are surface-hardened. If it was an original tappet
>that had
>>>worked for years, then there's a low probability of it suddenly
>going soft
>>>and wearing like that. If it was a replacement tappet that was
>dead soft
>>>(defective), then it could have worn to that point in a short
>time. Have
>>>an undamaged surface on the tappet checked for hardness. If
>it's hard,
>>>then you need to be looking for other culprits before you re-
>assemble the
>>>engine and call it good.
>>>
>>>The top of a good tappet should appear smooth/ polished. In the
>photo,
>>>the tappet's top surface looks "grainy". Like what you would
>see in the
>>>fractured edge of a broken cast iron part. Is that what it
>really looks
>>>like? Or am I seeing something else like oil deposits (that
>doesn't make
>>>sense either). If the thin, case-hardened top surface cracked,
>flaked out
>>>and exposed the plain cast iron below, then that sub-surface
>would wear
>>>quickly. Again, in that case you would really want to know where
>those bits
>>>of hardened surface went. They cannot be left in the engine.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Steve B" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I
>>>>could not get enough slack to lift the chain off the gear,
>>>>even though I backed the adjuster all the way out.
>>>As mentioned before, the idea isn't to remove the chain from the
>sprocket.
>>>Rather to lift the cam, sprocket and chain up out of the bearing
>journals as
>>>far as full tensioner slack will allow. Then lift the back end
>of the cam
>>>higher yet, tilting the cam "tail high" to clear all but the
>front
>>>bearing cap studs. Then swing the back of the cam toward the
>center of the
>>>head and lay the cam down at an angle between studs with the
>sprocket still
>>>meshed with the chain. Pad the stud threads and the head with
>rags to
>>>protect the cam lobes and bearing journals.
>>>
>>>But it's certainly a good procedure to dismantle everything.
>That for sure
>>>forces the issue of re-timing the cams from scratch, and that's
>a good
>>>thing.
>>>
>>>Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Steve B" <[email protected]>
>>>To: <***@***.***>
>>>Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:58 PM
>>>Subject: [LotusElan.net] GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS
>>>
>>>
>>>>I just added an album called TWIN CAM TAPPET with scans of the
>grooved
>>>>tappet I pulled out of the engine on Saturday. None of the
>other
>>>>tappeta are damaged and the cam lobe is ok.
>>>>
>>>>I'm guessing the tappet was defective because there was no
>shortage of
>>>>oil in the head.
>>>>
>>>>By the way - I wound up removing the gear because I could not
>get
>>>>enough slack to lift the chain off the gear, even though I
>backed the
>>>>adjuster all the way out. Did not give me any problem at all -
> let's
>>>>hope it goes back the same way!
>>>>
>>>>I have the chain wedged in place with a block of wood to keep
>it on all
>>>>of the other gears.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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PostPost by: M100 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:23 am

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:23:04 +0100, Steve Waterworth wrote:

How about using something like "Slick 50" with a regular oil to help
with the friction thing?

Spend your money on beer. In extensive research carried out by many
universities and scientific bodies over the years It has been
scientifically proven to have a more beneficial effect on engine
friction than Slick 50.

As an alternative, teetotalers may wish to sacrifice a goat at
midnight under a full moon. Vegetarian teetotalers can dance naked
for 38 minutes 23.4 seconds in a meadow full of daises to achieve the
same effect.

--
Martin
72/45
--
Martin
72 Sprint DHC
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PostPost by: frearther » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:42 pm

I vote for the beer option. Any particular brand?

Art
26/4934

At 06:21 AM 4/20/2006, you wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:23:04 +0100, Steve Waterworth wrote:

>How about using something like "Slick 50" with a regular oil to help
>with the friction thing?

Spend your money on beer. In extensive research carried out by many
universities and scientific bodies over the years It has been
scientifically proven to have a more beneficial effect on engine
friction than Slick 50.

As an alternative, teetotalers may wish to sacrifice a goat at
midnight under a full moon. Vegetarian teetotalers can dance naked
for 38 minutes 23.4 seconds in a meadow full of daises to achieve the
same effect.

--
Martin
72/45
--



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PostPost by: "Eric Salomon" » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:59 pm

Hmmm....... I would prefer whiskey. Won't cause (carb) frothing!



_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Behalf Of Arther H. Frederick
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:42 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] GROOVED TAPPET - SEE PHOTOS



I vote for the beer option. Any particular brand?

Art
26/4934

At 06:21 AM 4/20/2006, you wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:23:04 +0100, Steve Waterworth wrote:

>How about using something like "Slick 50" with a regular oil to help
>with the friction thing?

Spend your money on beer. In extensive research carried out by many
universities and scientific bodies over the years It has been
scientifically proven to have a more beneficial effect on engine
friction than Slick 50.

As an alternative, teetotalers may wish to sacrifice a goat at
midnight under a full moon. Vegetarian teetotalers can dance naked
for 38 minutes 23.4 seconds in a meadow full of daises to achieve the
same effect.

--
Martin
72/45
--



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Arther H. Frederick
Initial Reaction - embroidered and decorated apparel
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Valatie, NY 12184
518-392-4287
***@***.***












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PostPost by: poiuyt » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:16 pm

I bought the magazine and read the entire article. It seems to be
aimed at folks with modified engines and race-type cams, not stock.
Also, they talk about a problem with oil not getting to the tappet -
one of the tappets they show as a replacement is drilled at the top
to allow oil to flow to the top of the tappet.

In my case there was a constant pool of oil on the top of the
tappets, and the one that failed was where the oil for the intake cam
first enters the head. None of the other tappets were worn. As I
stated in a past e-mail, the problem was zero gap, which caused the
cam to wipe off any oil and no new oil could get between the tappet
and the lobe.

By the way, my 1996 VW GTI-VR6, which is a twin cam with flat topped
tappets, passed 200,000 miles a few weeks back with no problems -
everything is original. And it has been run on Mobil 1 since 13,000
miles, when I bought the car.

I'll stick with the Mobil 1 and take my chances.

Steve B



--- In ***@***.***, Martin Evans <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:44:41 -0600, Marc Fuller wrote:

>Steve this may be the answer to your tappet failure-
>
>Don't use Mobil 1! It has nothing to do with dino vs syn. - It
has to do

>with the fact that the new SM grade oils (especially Mobile 1) are
missing

>friction modifiers (a zinc and phosphorus compound called zinc
dialkyl

>dithiophosphate (ZDDP)) that are being left out to meet emissions
>goals. Our old direct "cam on tappet" engines need these ZDDP
friction

>modifiers.

So just about every engine that doesn't use rockers direct off the
cam

is now doomed to failure by running on modern oils?

Is the full text of this article available online?

--
Martin
72/45
--

Steve B.<br>1969 Elan S4
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PostPost by: poiuyt » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:26 pm

YOU ARE THE MAN!

Steve B.



--- In ***@***.***, Martin Evans <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:23:04 +0100, Steve Waterworth wrote:

>How about using something like "Slick 50" with a regular oil to
help

>with the friction thing?

Spend your money on beer. In extensive research carried out by many
universities and scientific bodies over the years It has been
scientifically proven to have a more beneficial effect on engine
friction than Slick 50.

As an alternative, teetotalers may wish to sacrifice a goat at
midnight under a full moon. Vegetarian teetotalers can dance naked
for 38 minutes 23.4 seconds in a meadow full of daises to achieve
the

same effect.

--
Martin
72/45
--

Steve B.<br>1969 Elan S4
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PostPost by: marcfuller » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:20 pm

Exactly "modified engines and race-type cams". While people who modify
older engines is the target market of Hot Rod, and it is also the reality
of our Elans' Twin Cams which are highly modified for higher performance
but based on simple old Ford engines. Our Twin Cams when compared to their
origin are modified engines and race-type cams. I have read reference to
the block we use, because of the broad applications and range of high
performance mods it has seen, as the 4 cylinder equivalent of the Chevy V8
small block.

In relation to oil - the point of the article is that today's API approved
oils (regardless of brand and type, even Mobil 1) are not the same formula
they were in the recent past ... due to changing emissions standards and
current engine component design. This is meaningful because our Twin Cams
are products of the past, which today's API oil formulas are not designed
to support.

I think in a few months/years we will see the advent of motor oils marketed
for vintage performance engines, which will have ZDDP friction modifier
formulas similar to the pre-2001 oils or today's racing oil and motorcycle
oils.

At 10:15 AM 4/21/2006, you wrote:
I bought the magazine and read the entire article. It seems to be
aimed at folks with modified engines and race-type cams, not stock.
Also, they talk about a problem with oil not getting to the tappet -
one of the tappets they show as a replacement is drilled at the top
to allow oil to flow to the top of the tappet.

In my case there was a constant pool of oil on the top of the
tappets, and the one that failed was where the oil for the intake cam
first enters the head. None of the other tappets were worn. As I
stated in a past e-mail, the problem was zero gap, which caused the
cam to wipe off any oil and no new oil could get between the tappet
and the lobe.

By the way, my 1996 VW GTI-VR6, which is a twin cam with flat topped
tappets, passed 200,000 miles a few weeks back with no problems -
everything is original. And it has been run on Mobil 1 since 13,000
miles, when I bought the car.

I'll stick with the Mobil 1 and take my chances.

Steve B
-Marc '66 Elan DHC (36/6025)
http://www.lotuselan.us
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PostPost by: s2lola » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:53 pm

Gents,

This seems to be a pretty easy question to get answered. We have a lot of
twin cam racers out there - are any of them currently using Mobil 1 (the new
reformulated version), and how is it working for them? Failing that, has
anyone had the dialogue with the pro race engine builders like Ivey,
Quicksilver and others (I don't know who the really good twin cam guys are,
but the Forum sure does) who are making their living building these (among
other) engines?

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt



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PostPost by: rgh0 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:10 am

--- In ***@***.***, "Tebbutt, Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Gents,

This seems to be a pretty easy question to get answered. We have a
lot of

twin cam racers out there - are any of them currently using Mobil 1
(the new

reformulated version), and how is it working for them?


Bill
I have replied to this more fully on LotusElan.net. In summary I
personally dont think the issue of reducing EP levels in modern oils
is a significant problem for us twin cam people provided other normal
build quality standards and running in precautions are taken. The
only time I would be concerned for a twin cam was if I was running a
full race engine with steel cams and buckets, with a high lift cam
and heavy springs and even then its probably only during the initial
running in where you need the high levels of EP additives in the oil.
I have run Mobil 1 in these types of engines for years without
problems provided the cam and bucket hardness was right and the
running in was done right.

Off course I could be wrong !!! but if it was a real problem in twin
cams in terms of engine failures in road engines it would have come
to light on the forums and it has not. Maybe their is a whole bunch
of potential failures out there just growing quietly but lots of
people play with these engines all the time and I am sure they would
have seen something by now.

The cam and bucket design of a Lotus twin cam is still modern and
used by many modern twin cam engines and I dont see many people
complaining about their toyotas or VW's engines wearing out too
quickly

I have not read the article yet and journalists often simplify
problems such as this to make a good headline. I am sure there are
elements of truth in what they are saying, the real question is
whether this is relevant to our engines compared to lots of other
potential causes of premature cam or bucket failures.

Chev V8's stress their cam to bucket follower interface much more
than a Lotus does with their big valves and heavy valve trains and
agressive cam profiles in the competition engines to try to
compensate for all the other breathing constraints in the head. The
inverted followers also dont live in the sea of oil on their running
surface like the Lotus ones do. Maybe the problem is just specific to
that style of engine

regards
Rohan

PS but its a good topic for forum discssuions as everyone always has
an opinion on oils ;)
In God I trust.... All others please bring data
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PostPost by: G. Strickfaden » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:53 am

You're right, Rohan, everybody likes to spread oil gossip. I can
attest that the cam-to-follower interface is the most highly loaded
region in a TC. Almost 30 years ago (egad!!) I was racing a TC-powered
CSR Elva Mk 7. Thinking I was catching the wave of tribology tech, I
tried some newfangled synthetic oil, Amzoil (before it became Amsoil).
Cam buckets (steel, Alfa Romeo) would not last a weekend - demonstrated
every time for several races. In desperation I switched back to
Valvoline Racing dino lube and the problem completely vanished.

Synthetic has definitely improved in the interim. Just a few years ago
I ran my Elan vintage racer with Valvoline synthetic 20W-50 with no
wear on the buckets after several weekends. Believe me, I checked
often. I wouldn't hesitate to use it again at this point, but this
thread about reduced EP capacity is fascinating and we should be
vigilant.

Gerry
G. Strickfaden
 

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