Any Interest in Wilwood Front Brake Caliper Brackets?

PostPost by: patrics » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:35 pm

Hi Steve
I think your reasons are fine for changing to a lighter caliper but I would
still look for caliper with external porting. The Pad temperature will
reduce but disc temp will stay the same.

Regards
Steve
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PostPost by: denicholls2 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:40 pm

The latest pass of this thread on the Europa board concluded:

1. For street use, the bother of going to disc rears was not worth the
advantage (which is better initial modulation after you sort the
balance out, which you will certainly need to do). The stock disc/drum
brakes are well balanced to work together.

2. For track use, the first point of failure is in fact overheated
discs, not caliper heat or fluid boiling.

I conclude that the best investment for the track is vented discs in
conjunction with a rear disc upgrade. This is if rules will let you
get away with it, which they probably will not.

For the street, make sure your components are in good order and enjoy a
well engineered factory system. Upgrading only the front calipers will
put greater stress on the weakest link in the system (the solid
discs). Lower unsprung weight is really the only advantage here.

Doug Nicholls, 54/1822 Ma~ (Stock brakes work just dandy)
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PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:47 am

Correction then- Wilwood and Outlaws are made in US of A

Quite a lot of us are using the Wilwoods here in SA - no prpblem
I've see a raodgoing Seven with Hi specs - although a bit "light" I would
think they are very suitable for road use on a light car
Arno
-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Behalf Of Martin Evans
Sent: 12 March 2006 11:30
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any Interest in Wilwood Front Brake Caliper
Brackets?


On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:32:01 +0200, Arno Church wrote:

>Both Wilwood and Hispec are made in the US of A and they both make M16
/P16
>bolt on callipers

The American's can take the blame for the Wilwood's but the Hispec's
are unfortunately British made.

After seeing their performance "under pressure" - (More cheese,
Gromit?) I would only ever recommend AP or Alcon calipers which are
engineered and manufactured on a different plane altogether.

--
Martin
72/45
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PostPost by: markvo » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:06 am

Steve,

I am interested, please send more info.

Mark V
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Waterworth
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any Interest in Wilwood Front Brake Caliper Brackets?


BTW: The Powerlite caliper is available as a rear version (smaller
pistons and mechanical handbrake). IMHO this would be a good swap out
for the poor Elan set up. Anyone interested in getting together to have
a mounting bracket made up?

Arno Church wrote:
> Correction then- Wilwood and Outlaws are made in US of A
>
> Quite a lot of us are using the Wilwoods here in SA - no prpblem
> I've see a raodgoing Seven with Hi specs - although a bit "light" I would
> think they are very suitable for road use on a light car
> Arno
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
> Behalf Of Martin Evans
> Sent: 12 March 2006 11:30
> To: ***@***.***
> Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any Interest in Wilwood Front Brake Caliper
> Brackets?
>
>
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 06:32:01 +0200, Arno Church wrote:
>
> >Both Wilwood and Hispec are made in the US of A and they both make M16
> /P16
> >bolt on callipers
>
> The American's can take the blame for the Wilwood's but the Hispec's
> are unfortunately British made.
>
> After seeing their performance "under pressure" - (More cheese,
> Gromit?) I would only ever recommend AP or Alcon calipers which are
> engineered and manufactured on a different plane altogether.
>
> --
> Martin
> 72/45
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Plus Sprint Devoted
> Impressions
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "lotuselan" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ***@***.***
>
> c.. the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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PostPost by: steveww » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:28 am

The caliper is
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/pr ... s_id=11370

A mounting bracket should be reasonably easy to make, the trick is going
to be coming up with some sort of cable arrangement. The issue is the
lack of leverage and I am still thinking of some way to come up with
more mechanical advantage in the linkage. Any suggestions welcomed.

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PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:49 am

Again IMHO, these calipers are a total overkill, especially on a road and
even trackday car.

The Elan , and Europa I guess, has a very good standard setup. For sprint
racing a harder pad could be used.

My S3 Elan - sadly now sold to my best friend ! , had an aftermarket brake
booster fitted when I bought it. The brakes were horrible. This booster was
removed and the Elan brakes like a lightweight sports car should , fantastic
control and feel.
If the car is used extensivley on track, you may just require air ducting
onto the solid disks - 75mm dia flexible tube should be more than suitable

As far as the rear handbrake set up is concerned, we battled to sort it out
until someone on this list provided the answer . Just bend the return
strips to its correct positions or buy new strips - perfect handbrake since
then.

Arno

The caliper is
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/pr ... s_id=11370

A mounting bracket should be reasonably easy to make, the trick is going
to be coming up with some sort of cable arrangement. The issue is the
lack of leverage and I am still thinking of some way to come up with
more mechanical advantage in the linkage. Any suggestions welcomed.
Arno Church
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PostPost by: steveww » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:10 am

It is not so much the increased braking effort and thermal capacity that
I am looking for it is really the reduction in unsprung weight. My S4
already has +2 front brakes and the servo removed. This significantly
improved the brakes giving better feel, easier heel'n'toe and reduced
rear lock up under heavy braking. However those iron calipers weigh
nearly 5kg each! Fitting alloy calipers would save about 4kg each at the
front and 3kg each at the rear. That is a significant ammount of
unsprung weight to dispose of.

I agree that the current set up is fine for road use and the odd track
day. I have used the above set up on track days and hooning through the
Central Massive in France and did not get any brake fade despite getting
the brakes very hot and smoking.

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PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:26 am

Agreed with the weight situation but to avoid the overbraking issue why not
fit the Dynalite 2 pot calipers up front and the Wilwood hydra-mechanical
calipers at the back?

I had a look at some Formula Ford Zetecs at the weekend and they use Alcon 2
pots front and rear , solid disks etc , and boy, can they stop on a tickey!
Make contact with a FF team and see if you can get some secondhand Alcons
from a crash write off. Cant get much lighter than that

Oh , and I replace the M16 5kg calipers on my race Seven with with Dynalite
4 pots 1.2Kgs and I am damned if I can notice the unsprung weight advantage

Arno


It is not so much the increased braking effort and thermal capacity that
I am looking for it is really the reduction in unsprung weight. My S4
already has +2 front brakes and the servo removed. This significantly
improved the brakes giving better feel, easier heel'n'toe and reduced
rear lock up under heavy braking. However those iron calipers weigh
nearly 5kg each! Fitting alloy calipers would save about 4kg each at the
front and 3kg each at the rear. That is a significant ammount of
unsprung weight to dispose of.

I agree that the current set up is fine for road use and the odd track
day. I have used the above set up on track days and hooning through the
Central Massive in France and did not get any brake fade despite getting
the brakes very hot and smoking.
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PostPost by: steveww » Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:47 am

I am also looking at the Hi-Spec 2 and 4 pot M16/Princess calipers.

Do you have any more info on the "Wilwood hydra-mechanical calipers"
These might be the Powerlites I am already looking in to???

I am surprised you did not notice the difference in unsprung weight.
When I swapped out the old steel wheels for Minilites on my S4 I could
feel the difference. Admittedly its not a huge difference.

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PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:00 pm

Steve , look on the wilwood website - wilwood.com or Rally Design website
The hydra-mechs look very similar to the standard Golf/Opel/Focus rear
calipers except they are aluminium. I also think they are single pot
floating type.

There are so many things influencing car "feel" - At the same time I fitted
the 4 pot Dynalites , I fitted ventilated disks and also went from a 6 inch
slick tyre to an 8 inch -obviously with wider rims . so the saving on the
calipers were lost on the discs and wider wheels plus the wheel offset is
different so handling was different- Also I changed from a 160+hp x-flow
engine and 4 speed box to a 200+ hp Zetec motor with 5 speed box.
All that only reduced laptimes by 1.8 secs at best !

Arno

I am also looking at the Hi-Spec 2 and 4 pot M16/Princess calipers.

Do you have any more info on the "Wilwood hydra-mechanical calipers"
These might be the Powerlites I am already looking in to???

I am surprised you did not notice the difference in unsprung weight.
When I swapped out the old steel wheels for Minilites on my S4 I could
feel the difference. Admittedly its not a huge difference.
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PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:09 pm

Steve
I forgot to mention-
leave the 4 pot Princess alone - they are twice as heavy as the M16 !!!!



>>> I am also looking at the Hi-Spec 2 and 4 pot M16/Princess calipers.
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PostPost by: Elan45 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:54 pm

I fully agree with Martin's evaluation. Before you buy the Willwood
calipers, watch someone bleed them or just look at the calipers under
pressure. They flex SO VERY MUCH! I also agree with the other comment
that you will have an unbalanced system, with most of your braking will
be on the front, that is until the front calipers start to seize up.
Remember that these calipers are sold as "racing" brakes and have no
dirt seals, only hydraulic seals. Willwood caliper pistons used to also
be very weak and I suspected them of flexing too. The pistons used to be
pressed steel, rather than machined from billet. Very thin!

Roger





The American's can take the blame for the Wilwood's but the Hispec's
are unfortunately British made.

After seeing their performance "under pressure" - (More cheese,
Gromit?) I would only ever recommend AP or Alcon calipers which are
engineered and manufactured on a different plane altogether.

--
Martin
72/45
--








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PostPost by: Arno Church » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:14 pm

Roger wrote:

I fully agree with Martin's evaluation. Before you buy the Willwood
calipers, watch someone bleed them or just look at the calipers under
pressure. They flex SO VERY MUCH! I also agree with the other comment
that you will have an unbalanced system, with most of your braking will
be on the front, that is until the front calipers start to seize up.
Remember that these calipers are sold as "racing" brakes and have no
dirt seals, only hydraulic seals. Willwood caliper pistons used to also
be very weak and I suspected them of flexing too. The pistons used to be
pressed steel, rather than machined from billet. Very thin!

Roger

I do not have a problem with thecalipers flexing and , yes , I use them
purely for racing. The pistons are now machined stainless steel billet
I will be fitting new seals sometime later this year, but up till now I
haven't had a problem with the seals being damaged by dust

Arno
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PostPost by: Frank Howard » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:42 pm

In a message dated 3/22/06 07:54:19 AM, ***@***.***es:

<< these calipers are sold as "racing" brakes and have no dirt seals, >>

I seem to remember this also. Using these brakes on the street will require
constant cleaning of the dirt from between the pistons and the calipers on the
atmosphere side of the pistons. Who needs more maintenance?

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota
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PostPost by: steveww » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:28 pm

Wilwood have obviously upset you in the past. The Midilite caliper is a
road caliper with full dust seals. As for flexing; I have not experiance
of this but I have seen Wilwood calipers on many race cars.

BTW I am also looking at HiSpec Motorsport M16 as well.

Roger Sieling wrote:

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