4th Gear semantics

[Elan45]

Yes, I know of NEDCAR. They have some of our markers.



The passenger car department of DAF was sold to Volvo. They designed and produced the Volvo 300 (based on a DAF 77 design) and 400 series of somewhat larger cars. The 300 had a choice of the DAF transmission or a manual Volvo transmission. After considerable time the design department in the Netherlands was dismantled and the production facilities sold to Mitsubishu under the name of Nedcar. The Volvo V40/S40 was produced there together with a Mitsubishu on the same assembly line.Now the Smart for Four is produced on this line.

After DAF passenger cars were sold to Volvo a new company was grounded in the Netherlands to continiou the work done on next generation continiously variable automatic transmissions. This company is called VDT (Van Doorne's Transmissies). This new generation of transmissions is based on a more complex metal belt. VDT supplies these metal belts to a lot of car and transmission producers in the world. Power rating for these new transmissions is much larger than for the older DAF transmission. Already tests have been done with F1 power trains.



Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen

[Rob_LaMoreaux]

Ford started making CVTs last year for the Ford 500, Ford Freestyle, and
Mercury versions of those cars. These are large cars with 200bhp V6s and FWD
or AWD and they are 3600-4500lbs. There are other CVTs in use, but these are
currently the largest production cars that I know of with them. Of course
the modern belts are metal not rubber.

Then of course there used to be a car with a variable speed tranmission that
had not belts or gears. They used a spinning disk and a wheel would press
against the disk to transmit force with the speed being a function of how
far from the center of the disk the wheel was. I can't remember what car or
other details, but it was something from the teens or twenties.

Rob LaMoreaux

A & D Technology Inc.
4622 Runway Blvd.
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734-822-9696
Fax 734-973-1103
Main Desk 734-973-1111
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Home email: ***@***.***

[lotustony]

Huge harvesting machines; combines and such, used the "shifting-sheave"
variable speed belt drive systems from the early fifties until being
supplanted by hydrostatic variable speed drives in relatively recent
years. There are a jillion snowmobiles, carts and lawn-tractors which use
the belt variable drive as well.

[mikecauser]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:58:14 -0500 "Robert D. LaMoreaux" <***@***.***> wrote:


Austin in the 1930s. The transmission was patented by Charles Hunt in
1877, further developed by Frank Hayes in the 1920s, and then again as
Perbury or Perbury-Hayes in the 1960s. Although it was never made to
last long in cars it apparently is still made for aircraft applications.

http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/tech/2/83.htm


Mike
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[Elan45]

Rob,

Very, Very early International Harvester trucks had this feature, or more shall we say motorized wagons. That's also how it changed directions. Dead center was neutral, over center was reverse and could theoretically go as fast in rev as forward.

Roger


Ford started making CVTs last year for the Ford 500, Ford Freestyle, and
Mercury versions of those cars. These are large cars with 200bhp V6s and FWD
or AWD and they are 3600-4500lbs. There are other CVTs in use, but these are
currently the largest production cars that I know of with them. Of course
the modern belts are metal not rubber.

Then of course there used to be a car with a variable speed tranmission that
had not belts or gears. They used a spinning disk and a wheel would press
against the disk to transmit force with the speed being a function of how
far from the center of the disk the wheel was. I can't remember what car or
other details, but it was something from the teens or twenties.

Rob LaMoreaux

A & D Technology Inc.
4622 Runway Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI 48108
734-822-9696
Fax 734-973-1103
Main Desk 734-973-1111
www.mtspt.com
Work email: ***@***.***
Home email: ***@***.***

[Frank Howard]

In a message dated 2/7/06 11:05:09 AM, ***@***.***es:

<< They used a spinning disk and a wheel would press
against the disk to transmit force with the speed being a function of how
far from the center of the disk the wheel was. >>

This is similar to the transmission design common in snow blowers. The two
disks are perpendicular to each other and are infinitely adjustable, limited
only by the number of notches the manufacturer puts on the shift gate. Mine has
three possible positions, thus it's a 3 speed which is plenty. I've seen as
many as 7 notches on other models which is nothing but a marketing tool.
Unfortunately, my snow blower averages more engine hours per year than my Elan
does. On the other hand, due in part to automatic decompression, it always
starts on the first pull. I guess that makes me the human Super Starter!

Frank Howard
'71 Elan S4 SE (4 speed + reverse)
"84 Honda HS55 Snow Blower (3 speed + reverse)
Minnesota

[elansprint71]

Rich,
If you have plenty of time look at this variable transmission- I'm not
sure that it has been used in a car but I have (many, many tears ago)
serviced them in industrial applications:

http://www.allspeeds.co.uk/kopp.html

Enjoy!

Pete.


Richard Boyd wrote:

[lotuselan2]

Cor

I have not been following this email thread but when I saw DAF I had to take
a peak.



In the mid-'70's I ran rallies in Belgium, Flemish part. I had a 1300cc
Lancia Fulvia. There was a guy with an 1100cc DAF that was very specially
prepared. I do not know if he had connections at the factory or not. The
motor was prepared to Group 2 rules of the time which meant it was quite
powerful for 1100cc. The big mods were to the transmission controls. It
was set up to keep the motor at max RPM whenever he was at full throttle,
since he used left foot braking that was nearly 100% of every stage. I was
glad he was in a lower class; the car and driver were very fast!



How did this get on a Lotus page??



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of C. Beijersbergen
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:42 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] DA,F was 4th Gear semantics



DAF besides its lorry section had a series of small cars, the Daffodil, the
33, 44, 55 and 66. All these cars had a continiously variable automatic
transmission based on rubber belts. In the late 60's DAF ran a F3 (1L,
Cosworth SCA ca. 110 hp) racing team with cars with these transmissions,
they performed rather well.

The passenger car department of DAF was sold to Volvo. They designed and
produced the Volvo 300 (based on a DAF 77 design) and 400 series of somewhat
larger cars. The 300 had a choice of the DAF transmission or a manual Volvo
transmission. After considerable time the design department in the
Netherlands was dismantled and the production facilities sold to Mitsubishu
under the name of Nedcar. The Volvo V40/S40 was produced there together with
a Mitsubishu on the same assembly line.Now the Smart for Four is produced on
this line.

After DAF passenger cars were sold to Volvo a new company was grounded in
the Netherlands to continiou the work done on next generation continiously
variable automatic transmissions. This company is called VDT (Van Doorne's
Transmissies). This new generation of transmissions is based on a more
complex metal belt. VDT supplies these metal belts to a lot of car and
transmission producers in the world. Power rating for these new
transmissions is much larger than for the older DAF transmission. Already
tests have been done with F1 power trains.



Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen












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[richboyd]

I like the wide variety of responses. Let me propose my original
question again, but in the context of CVT transmissions. What is
ratio? What does "gear" mean?
In a CVT, you certainly have a continuum* of ratios, but do the
ratios refer to shaft speeds (angular velocity), or to "gear ratios"?
Are there "gears" in a CVT? You have to love a car that is called a
Dafodill (I really appreciate the DAF history contributions. Thank you).

What contsitutes a "gear ratio?" Does 4th speed in an Elan qualify
for a "gear?" Does a CVT have gear ratios? Or just transmission
ratios? Or shaft ratios?

Rich Boyd

*other than continuum, only vacuum has the remants of U-U instead of
the modern joining of U's : W.

[c.beijersbergen]

Hello Ken,


Cor

I have not been following this email thread but when I saw DAF I had to take
a peak.



In the mid-'70's I ran rallies in Belgium, Flemish part. I had a 1300cc
Lancia Fulvia. There was a guy with an 1100cc DAF that was very specially
prepared. I do not know if he had connections at the factory or not. The
motor was prepared to Group 2 rules of the time which meant it was quite
powerful for 1100cc.
The motor DAF used came from Renault, so for rallying there was an option of using the Gordini version of this motor, which was used in Renault Alpine A110's or Matra Jet's. These DAF's (I believe they were 66 Coup?'s) were very fast indeed, also reliable, because one finished the London Sydney Marathon.

The big mods were to the transmission controls. It
was set up to keep the motor at max RPM whenever he was at full throttle,
since he used left foot braking that was nearly 100% of every stage.
The engine was kept at max. power rpm all the time. This is a nice feature of this type of automastic transmission, one can control the powertrain characteristic by the control unit, certainly nowadays with more electronics available. In one car one can change from a continiously variable drive to a 6 or 7 gear drive with distinct fixed reduction ratio's by a deashboard switch.



I was
glad he was in a lower class; the car and driver were very fast!



How did this get on a Lotus page??
Somebody started this discussuion by stating that the term "fourth gear" for fourth gear in an Elan box is not right because no gears are involved. This brought us to car transmissions where no gears at all are involved, you see?



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

[c.beijersbergen]

Hello Richard,

You wrote:
'I like the wide variety of responses. Let me propose my original
question again, but in the context of CVT transmissions. What is
ratio? What does "gear" mean?
In a CVT, you certainly have a continuum* of ratios, but do the
ratios refer to shaft speeds (angular velocity), or to "gear ratios"?
Are there "gears" in a CVT? You have to love a car that is called a
Dafodill (I really appreciate the DAF history contributions. Thank you).

What contsitutes a "gear ratio?" Does 4th speed in an Elan qualify
for a "gear?" Does a CVT have gear ratios? Or just transmission
ratios? Or shaft ratios?

Rich Boyd'



A transmission has as sole function to mate the characteristics of a power producer (in a car: engine) to the chracteristics of a power consumer (in a car: driven wheels). The characteristics consist of the relation between rotation speed and torque. The transmission can have fixed ratios of speed and torque between ingoing and outgoing shafts or it can have a variable ratio. Transmissions with fixed ratios are gearboxes (with gears with teeth), toothed belt systems and chain systems. In all these solutions the speed ratios are directly related to the ratios between number of teeth on the active gears, the number of teeth on toothed belt wheels and on the relation of the teeth on the chain sprockets. But essential for the function of a transmission is the speed ratio.
In a CVT the variable part of the speed ratio is not done by gear wheels, but mostly by friction on cone shaped surfaces. So CVT's do not have 'gear ratios' that are of any significance but the have speed ratios that are within a band of usable numbers. Sometimes they only a limited number of values is being used so the CVT behaves like a manual box, sometimes all values are being used where behaviour really becomes continious.

BTW, I do have the impression that this semantic question only exists in english. In german 4th gear is '4en Gang', which means something like fourth speed ratio, in dutch it is 'vierde versnelling' where 'versnelling' has the reverse meaning of 'speed reduction' and in french it is '4eme vitesse' as mentioned before by someone.
Is there any other language that knows words like gearbox or fourth gear?


DAF made a terrible marketing error at the introduction of its line of small cars that all had the variable belt drive. The did put al lot of empasis on the fact that these cars were very well suited to elderly or invalid people. So nobody that considered himself or herself to be young and healthy was pepared to be seen near any of these DAF's. It became even worse when one of the models was called Daffodil. Only young students who discovered how fast the cars could be driven once one mastered the required driving style could be seen racing in the streets.
The bad image was the reason for DAF to become active in racing (F3) and rallying. DAF never managed to produce more than 100.000 cars a year.

But now for a semantic contribution. If the term 'fourth gear' is not right because no gears are being used, is then 'third gear' not also wrong, because it is not one gear thast is being used, but at least two? Should the term 'gear' here not been seen seperated from its technical form, but only in its function, like the german 'Gang'?



Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen

[lotuselan2]

I see. Any comments on the rally car I described?



By the way, do you know Cor Euser? I raced with him in the early ?80?s,
FF2000. Guess Cor is a relatively common Dutch name.



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of C. Beijersbergen
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:24 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] DA,F was 4th Gear semantics



Hello Ken,


Cor

I have not been following this email thread but when I saw DAF I had to
take
a peak.



In the mid-'70's I ran rallies in Belgium, Flemish part. I had a 1300cc
Lancia Fulvia. There was a guy with an 1100cc DAF that was very specially
prepared. I do not know if he had connections at the factory or not. The
motor was prepared to Group 2 rules of the time which meant it was quite
powerful for 1100cc.
The motor DAF used came from Renault, so for rallying there was an
option of using the Gordini version of this motor, which was used in Renault
Alpine A110's or Matra Jet's. These DAF's (I believe they were 66 Coup?'s)
were very fast indeed, also reliable, because one finished the London Sydney
Marathon.

The big mods were to the transmission controls. It
was set up to keep the motor at max RPM whenever he was at full throttle,
since he used left foot braking that was nearly 100% of every stage.
The engine was kept at max. power rpm all the time. This is a nice
feature of this type of automastic transmission, one can control the
powertrain characteristic by the control unit, certainly nowadays with more
electronics available. In one car one can change from a continiously
variable drive to a 6 or 7 gear drive with distinct fixed reduction ratio's
by a deashboard switch.



I was
glad he was in a lower class; the car and driver were very fast!



How did this get on a Lotus page??
Somebody started this discussuion by stating that the term "fourth
gear" for fourth gear in an Elan box is not right because no gears are
involved. This brought us to car transmissions where no gears at all are
involved, you see?



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR














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[mikecauser]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:35:29 -0500 "Lotus" <***@***.***> wrote:


The name rings bells here.


Mike
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