Lotus Elan

More wheels

PostPost by: guerrilla garage » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:15 pm

Yesterday I searched back through the archives to figure out how much wheels
weigh. I found out that a stock S2 "knock-on" wheel weighs about 12 lbs. I
also discovered from the R.D. Enterprises web site that a "knock-on"
Panasport weighs in at about 11.25. Although it would be my first choice
aesthetically (well those or Minilites) I have a hard time getting really
jazzed about spending $900 and saving 3lbs of unsprung weight. Does anybody
know off hand of any wheels that weigh even less? If so how much? Weight?
Money? thanks -Steve
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PostPost by: c.beijersbergen » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:30 pm

Industrial technology is not that simple.
Steel is very strong, but heavy,
But if you go for the same concept in alumin(i)um, not much is to be gained.
Alu has about a third of the specific weigth of steel, but unfortunately both strength and stiffness are also only a third of the values of steel. So unless you do something very special changing from steel to alumin(i)um won't help you anyway.
So the amount of light metal wheels one sees nowadays is only based on looks and ease of production.
The shape of the construction might do a good thing, for instance the wellknown Lotus wobbly web wheels from the F1 cars and the 23 are a good example.
Looking at it from another direction, it is the total unsprung weight that counts. This involves the wheel, the tyre, part of the suspension, the brakes anda few parts more. Reducing the weight of the wheel will not help you a lot.
The only thing that remains are the good looks. That is what you pay your money for.

Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen
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PostPost by: s2lola » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:40 pm

Cor is right - ally wheels today are heavy as all get out! But wobbly's are
awful for brake cooling (as are any solid disc wheels)

Well, another way to look at this wheel thing is......that the wheels on the
car are just 4 more flywheels (in addition to the one on the crank!). In
theory, much is to be gained by putting on wheels of the same weight as the
original, but with that weight located closer to the center of the wheel
(all other things being equal). Its no different than how you lighten a
flywheel - you don't take the meat out of the middle! Note that the road
wheels are generally turning at less than engine speed though.

In theory, I wonder if the single biggest bang for the buck (as far as
acceleration and braking goes)would be to change from steel belted street
radials to a shaved bias ply (like a Dunlop treaded formula ford tire,
perhaps)?

Cheers,
Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: C. Beijersbergen [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/08/09 16:31
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] More wheels


Industrial technology is not that simple.
Steel is very strong, but heavy,
But if you go for the same concept in alumin(i)um, not much is to be gained.
Alu has about a third of the specific weigth of steel, but unfortunately
both strength and stiffness are also only a third of the values of steel. So
unless you do something very special changing from steel to alumin(i)um
won't help you anyway. So the amount of light metal wheels one sees nowadays
is only based on looks and ease of production. The shape of the construction
might do a good thing, for instance the wellknown Lotus wobbly web wheels
from the F1 cars and the 23 are a good example. Looking at it from another
direction, it is the total unsprung weight that counts. This involves the
wheel, the tyre, part of the suspension, the brakes anda few parts more.
Reducing the weight of the wheel will not help you a lot. The only thing
that remains are the good looks. That is what you pay your money for.

Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen








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PostPost by: guerrilla garage » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:51 pm

Wasn't there sombody in the UK that was making magnesium wheels for
vintage racing? I used to have a link but can't find it. They must
be lighter aren't they? Certainly forged aluminum wheels are lighter,
I know the Fuchs alloys on my 911 were really light. Doesn't anybody
make a forged AL wheel to fit an Elan? -Steve
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PostPost by: "Martin Stuart" » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:13 pm

It's not Tony Thompson Racing you are thinking of, is it?
http://www.tonythompsonracing.co.uk/mainframe.html

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: guerrilla1
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] More wheels


Wasn't there sombody in the UK that was making magnesium wheels for
vintage racing? I used to have a link but can't find it. They must
be lighter aren't they? Certainly forged aluminum wheels are lighter,
I know the Fuchs alloys on my 911 were really light. Doesn't anybody
make a forged AL wheel to fit an Elan? -Steve








To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html






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PostPost by: c.beijersbergen » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:31 pm

Bill,
Your remark about the flywhel effect of the wheels on a car makes a lot of sense. It shows why one should be careful about using fat, wide tyres on wide (=heavy) wheels. Also one should not expect too much from ligthening an engine flywheel. In first gear those four wheels with heavy rubber are running at almost engine speed. So in accelaration not a lot is to be gained from a lighter flywheel. Changing engine speed while changing gear will be quicker, of course.
In my humble opinion the Elan was (is) such a quick car because all components are small and light and are working together
in the best possible smart compomise.

Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen
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PostPost by: "Stan Aarhus" » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:41 pm

The original competition Mini-Lites, which the Panasports are almost an exact copy of, were magnesium, while the road wheels were aluminium. They were distributed by Tek-Del (sp?) Racing. I'm not sure if Tech-Del (sp?) are still in business or not.

Stan

Wasn't there sombody in the UK that was making magnesium wheels for
vintage racing? I used to have a link but can't find it. They must
be lighter aren't they? Certainly forged aluminum wheels are lighter,
I know the Fuchs alloys on my 911 were really light. Doesn't anybody
make a forged AL wheel to fit an Elan? -Steve
"Stan Aarhus"
 

PostPost by: lotuselan2 » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:26 pm

Beware of magnesium wheels!

Pros: great for racing on a large budget

Cons: will crack, will burst into flames under some conditions of abrasion,
expensive or impossible to repair, not a good bet for long term street sue.



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Stan Aarhus
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:42 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] More wheels



The original competition Mini-Lites, which the Panasports are almost an
exact copy of, were magnesium, while the road wheels were aluminium. They
were distributed by Tek-Del (sp?) Racing. I'm not sure if Tech-Del (sp?)
are still in business or not.

Stan

Wasn't there sombody in the UK that was making magnesium wheels for
vintage racing? I used to have a link but can't find it. They must
be lighter aren't they? Certainly forged aluminum wheels are lighter,
I know the Fuchs alloys on my 911 were really light. Doesn't anybody
make a forged AL wheel to fit an Elan? -Steve









To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright) LotusElan.net and the author:





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PostPost by: gwnorth68 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:11 am

I just refurbished a very old (mid-60's) set of magnesium alloy Minilite
wheels (41/2x13) and installed them on my S3 Elan to replace a set of bolt
on 41/2x13 steel original equipment wheels (ie the ones that bend and crack
with little provocation). Weights with tires are as follows:

Steel 26lbs
Mag alloy 21 lbs
The tires are 155-70x13 Pirelli P200 Aquachrono.

Five lbs unsprung weight and a stronger wheel can't be faulted. The
Minilites were left over from a GT6. They were used initially as racing
wheels but spent many seasons with rain tires mounted, waiting for rain
which never came. Don't think they's last long in the snow and salt around
here (Montreal) in winter.
Tom Moore
Tom
'68 Elan S3 Roadster, '72 MGB, FFR Roadster Cxbxa Replica, 2001 Saab 9.3
Bolton Ouest, Quebec
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PostPost by: gwnorth68 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:16 am

Does anyone with an Elan really expect long-term street use?
Biggest problem with mag alloy is corrosion but it didn't seem to bother my
Lawnboy mower deck much. If you're really worried about mag fires you should
check carefully any new car you buy. Many make extensive use of mag alloy
die castings to reduce weight.(Chevrolet for one in SUV dash support
casting). Hard to dismiss the 30% weight saving over aluminum alloys!
Tom Moore
Tom
'68 Elan S3 Roadster, '72 MGB, FFR Roadster Cxbxa Replica, 2001 Saab 9.3
Bolton Ouest, Quebec
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PostPost by: Fred Talmadge » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:18 am

Here's a link http://www.leechapmanracing.com/wheel.htm Like someone said
expensive and risky.

Fred


At 08:51 PM 8/9/2005 +0000, guerrilla1 wrote:

Wasn't there sombody in the UK that was making magnesium wheels for
vintage racing? I used to have a link but can't find it. They must
be lighter aren't they? Certainly forged aluminum wheels are lighter,
I know the Fuchs alloys on my 911 were really light. Doesn't anybody
make a forged AL wheel to fit an Elan? -Steve








To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html


http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/legal_stuff.shtml
Yahoo! Groups Links











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PostPost by: poiuyt » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:48 am

Sorry to say, a tire does not rotate anywhere near engine speed in
first gear. If it did, you would be going over 350 miles per hour
at 5000rpm.

Also, in the higher gears you'd be going even faster - until the
tires exploded!

Lightening the flywheel will allow the engine to rev up quicker if
all other things are equal. That's why it is done for racing, but
there is a trade off of more vibration at idle and lower speeds
because the weight of the flywheel is used to smooth our the spaces
between the firing of the spark plugs.

Steve B
1969 S4 DHC


--- In ***@***.***, "C. Beijersbergen"
<[email protected]> wrote:
Bill,
...It shows why one should be careful about using fat, wide tyres
on wide (=heavy) wheels. Also one should not expect too much from

ligthening an engine flywheel. In first gear those four wheels with
heavy rubber are running at almost engine speed...

Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen


Steve B.<br>1969 Elan S4
poiuyt
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PostPost by: guerrilla garage » Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:08 am

Cool! If I subtracted right that means each wheel only weighs
7lbs?!? Did they come in "knock-on" configuration? I want a set!
Does anybody know where to get 'em? -Steve


--- In ***@***.***, "tom moore" <[email protected]>
wrote:
I just refurbished a very old (mid-60's) set of magnesium alloy
Minilite

wheels (41/2x13) and installed them on my S3 Elan to replace a set
of bolt

on 41/2x13 steel original equipment wheels (ie the ones that bend
and crack

with little provocation). Weights with tires are as follows:

Steel 26lbs
Mag alloy 21 lbs
The tires are 155-70x13 Pirelli P200 Aquachrono.

Five lbs unsprung weight and a stronger wheel can't be faulted.
The

Minilites were left over from a GT6. They were used initially as
racing

wheels but spent many seasons with rain tires mounted, waiting for
rain

which never came. Don't think they's last long in the snow and
salt around

here (Montreal) in winter.
Tom Moore
guerrilla garage
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Posts: 53
Joined: 01 Oct 2004

PostPost by: c.beijersbergen » Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:16 am

I did correct that statement in a later message!

Cor Beijersbergen van Henegouwen
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve B
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] More wheels


Sorry to say, a tire does not rotate anywhere near engine speed in
first gear. If it did, you would be going over 350 miles per hour
at 5000rpm.
c.beijersbergen
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PostPost by: "Roy" » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:35 am

Stan,

Yes, it appears that Tech-Del are still trading. In the last issue
of Club Lotus News (No3 July)there is an interesting article written
by the company's MD, Don Simmons.

It seems they supply all sorts of sizes including the Spyder 14"
variety.

Roy
'65S2
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