Lotus Elan and Lotus Elan Plus 2 Forums

Drive an 05 Mustang GT, then tell me its not a "new"idea. Compared to the 68
big block GT in the driveway (beside our new GT convertible), it is
brilliiant!

Cheers
Bill Tebbutt
Ps yes I still love my Elan



-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Fuller <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.*** <***@***.***>
Sent: Thu Jul 14 19:16:11 2005
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Other Lotus owners


Yeah, that could be it! Today's changed regulatory, legislative and
litigious environment means the only exciting product ideas and solutions
for the US marques are 40 years old. Extending this hypothesis into other
industries might even explain why we have "new" movies today like the
Honeymooners, The Longest Yard, Bewitched, Herbie, War of the Worlds, and
Dukes of Hazard.
























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Perhaps since so many new ideas come out of committee they seem to lack
excitement, corporations are a conservative lot with greater interest
to the shareholder than the consumer. The new Dodge Charger is a sedan,
Lincoln dumped the Continental name...but the new Mustang turns my head
every time one goes by. So does the Elise but I shake my head as its
only for those of less than median stature, lucky little sh*ts
I like my Elan, make the Guilia seem piggish round the bends,
Scott


movies today like the Honeymooners, The Longest Yard, Bewitched,
Herbie, War of the Worlds, and Dukes of Hazard.




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I saw that show, and actually the designer was bemoaning the fact that
he now had to design a roll-down window in a funky GT-40 door profile
that never had an operable window and was never designed to accomodate
one... a very difficult problem to solve. Hey, I loved the GT-40 when
it was new in the 60's, and I think for Ford in 2005 to build such a
streetable, up-dated, version of that unobtainable classic is an homage
to timeless good design. There's one in a showroom near me, and it's
beautiful!

Now that remake of the Honeymooners is a different animal...

Gary
'71 Sprint
___________________________________________________________________

..."There was a recent program on Speed TV featuring Ford's new GT 40
where the designer was lamenting about how difficult it was to design
the new GT 40. (Maybe the duplicator was down and he didn't know how
to use a pantograph?) </snark>

The Mustang looks great, but it needs to shed about 800 pounds.
Then it would be able to get the same performance from a smaller
engine (i.e. 289 high performance 271 HP). Also, take away 40 years
of tire improvements and the new car wouldn't handle as well as it
does. This is true for most "sports cars" today, where the skid pad
and slalom results are due to tire technology, not necessarily a
good suspension set up.

Back in the early Mustang days the car press would bemoan the fact
that cars were approaching 4000 pounds. Now they praise 3800 pound
BMWs, 3600 pound Mustangs, etc. My two sports cars (see below)
together don't weigh as much as one Mustang.

Steve B
69 Elan S4 DHC
78 FIAT X1/9
96 VW GTI-VR6


--- In ***@***.***, "Tebbutt, Bill"
<bill.tebbutt@n...> wrote:








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New ideas from a committee?

One of the strongest indicators of commitment to shareholder value is a
company's focus on its products, consumers and markets. Witness Nissan's
new management, new products, its business recovery and its stock price is
now twice what it was 5 years ago. At the same time Ford and GM shares are
worth 50% of what they were 5 years ago and their bonds have hit junk status.


At 06:23 PM 7/14/2005, you wrote:

Yeah, that 's the funny thing about technological advancements. If you take
them all away, the cars hardly seem to act new anymore... <G>

Regards,
-John

Hi all,
I feel compelled to weigh in on the subject of the Ford GT, Mustang et al...
Simply berating these "retro" designs because they rehash 40 year old icons
doesn't acknowledge that the industry is working hard to make their product
lines more appealing.

I am a designer, and on the whole I believe that these designs have done a
respectable job of injecting a strong dose of emotional appeal. Design, or
"styling" as the automotive industry often likes to refer to it, is about
creating an emotional connection with the buying public. While economics,
politics, technology, and regulations change, emotions remain constant (if
anyone out there has EVER invented a new emotion by all means please let me
know immediately!) In short, emotion is the reason that we all fell in love
with these iconic cars in the first place, and it's silly for the car
companies to not take advantage of that. It is absolutely hypocritical to
love the original versions of these cars, and not have respect for their
modern incarnations.

On another note, Camillo Pardo , the lead designer on the new Ford GT was
one of my instructors in college, and I can confirm that he is a pretty
brilliant guy. He was one of toughest instructors I had, and during his
class I was convinced that he hated my designs, but in the end he gave me
some of the best and most positive feedback I have ever gotten. Years later
I taught that exact same class at the same school, I hope I did as well as
he did.

Finally, I also believe that Lotus owners, irregardless of why they bought
the car in the first place, tend to become Lotus enthusiasts. The guy
looking down his nose at your "what is that some kinda MG?" (elan) has
taken the bait, and it is only a matter of time before he is as rabid about
Lotus as the rest of us.

happy lotusing!

Evan Carpenter-Crawford
1969 FHC #8624

should have read: Perhaps since so many new ideas come out of committee
seem to lack excitement.

Basically new twists on the tried and true.


It should be but isn't always this way. The markets are fickle based on
emotional responses to real or perceived events. Otherwise there
wouldn't be bubbles.


Ford and GM shares are worth 50% of what they were 5 years ago and
their bonds have hit junk status.

The domestics keep offering what they think we want along with products
for which they have created demand. Generally speaking; this is a
country of consumers lead by the nose. Corporations dictating what we
want, what we should have, what to think and who to believe. Big fat
elephants expecting us all to hold their tail and get in line.

Recall the beautiful Ghia Barchetta morphing into the awful Capri? How
about Ford limiting the hybrid Escape to 5000 units when Toyota can't
build the Hybrid Prius fast enough to meet demand?

Would like to see Roger Penske running GM.

Would like to see fewer sedans and SUV's and more niche market
machines.
Enough of my ranting, it's a nice crisp morning, the twisties sing a
siren song...I must be off to become one with machine, clear my head,
refocus life's priorities and try to remeber what it was I'm supposed
to get done today

Cheers,
Scott

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Your explanation has completely reversed my opinion of automobile design
and styling. I didn't realize that the best way to evoke an emotional
response was to reproduce the styling that originally stimulated it, but
maybe larger with more chrome and comfort. The emotions I have had for
sleek original '64 E-types now seem shallow compared to my new found
appreciation the late production V-12s with their chrome and stretched
roofs and flairs. Think how much better the Type 14 Elite might have been
if Kirwin-Taylor would have just stayed in accounting and kept his original
ideas to himself. And while I have loved the design of my Elan, I now can
see how much deeper my emotion could have been I have if Hickman would have
left the original Sprite-like styling model alone. I have new guilt for
having lamented the changes to original the designs of Loewy's Starliner
and Avanti. The real designers were the nameless plagrizing individuals
and committees who added chrome and fins, upright grills and chopped the
tops off. The Mustang II, what genius!

Designers like Pardo are to be applauded and respected and awarded for
their efforts. He took the original GT40, was able to make it 10-15% larger
and you can hardly tell except the windows roll down. Thankfully we have
large number of incubator companies developing many of these stylists
making replicas of emotional cars like the GT40, Boss Mustang, Daytona,
Cobra, Avanti, 356, 550. I am ashamed to have ignored their efforts in the
past. Not anymore! Forget the Loewy Foundation's Lucky Strike Award
rewarding a lifetime of original design. Let me propose that the auto
industry create a new annual award for derivative designers whose work best
evokes the style and emotion of an original work - I suggest we call it the
DEJA VU Award for Automobile Design. And, I pray that the nightmare of
original design will soon end.

At 06:07 AM 7/15/2005, you wrote:

Your explanation has completely reversed my opinion of automobile design
and styling. I didn't realize that the best way to evoke an emotional
response was to reproduce the styling that originally stimulated it, but
maybe larger with more chrome and comfort. The emotions I have had for
sleek original '64 E-types now seem shallow compared to my new found
appreciation the late production V-12s with their chrome and stretched
roofs and flairs. Think how much better the Type 14 Elite might have been
if Kirwin-Taylor would have just stayed in accounting and kept his original
ideas to himself. And while I have loved the design of my Elan, I now can
see how much deeper my emotion could have been I have if Hickman would have
left the original Sprite-like styling model alone. I hate to admit having
appreciated the elegance of original AC Ace more than the 289 Cobra. I
have new guilt for having lamented the changes to original the designs of
Loewy's Starliner and Avanti. The real designers were the nameless
plagiarizing individuals and committees who added chrome and fins, upright
grills and chopped the tops off. And the Mustang II, what genius!

Designers like Pardo are to be applauded and respected and awarded for
their efforts. He took the original GT40, was able to make it 10-15% larger
and you can hardly tell except the windows roll down. What emotion, all
over again! Thankfully we have large number of incubator companies
developing many of these new noble stylists making replicas of emotional
cars like the GT40, Boss Mustang, Daytona, Cobra, Avanti, 356, 550. I am
ashamed to have ignored their efforts in the past. Not anymore! Forget
the Loewy Foundation's Lucky Strike Award rewarding a lifetime of original
design. Let me propose that the auto industry create a new annual award for
derivative designers whose work best evokes the same style and emotion of
an original work - I suggest we call it the DEJA VU Award for Automobile
Design. And, I pray that the nightmare of original design and style will
soon end.


At 06:07 AM 7/15/2005, you wrote:

Marc,

Your email was great! I love the faux sarcasm, as it obviously took a lot
of time to think it all up! I'm thankful you were joking, as you would
otherwise offend Evan, who as far as I can tell IS the only accomplished
automotive designer on this thread.

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt

Elan owner. Also retro-trash 05 Mustang owner. And wannabe retro-trash 05
Ford GT owner (except I'm about US$250,000 short)

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Fuller [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/07/15 13:08
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] other lotus owners



Your explanation has completely reversed my opinion of automobile design
and styling. I didn't realize that the best way to evoke an emotional
response was to reproduce the styling that originally stimulated it, but
maybe larger with more chrome and comfort. The emotions I have had for
sleek original '64 E-types now seem shallow compared to my new found
appreciation the late production V-12s with their chrome and stretched
roofs and flairs. Think how much better the Type 14 Elite might have been
if Kirwin-Taylor would have just stayed in accounting and kept his original
ideas to himself. And while I have loved the design of my Elan, I now can
see how much deeper my emotion could have been I have if Hickman would have
left the original Sprite-like styling model alone. I hate to admit having
appreciated the elegance of original AC Ace more than the 289 Cobra. I
have new guilt for having lamented the changes to original the designs of
Loewy's Starliner and Avanti. The real designers were the nameless
plagiarizing individuals and committees who added chrome and fins, upright
grills and chopped the tops off. And the Mustang II, what genius!

Designers like Pardo are to be applauded and respected and awarded for
their efforts. He took the original GT40, was able to make it 10-15% larger
and you can hardly tell except the windows roll down. What emotion, all
over again! Thankfully we have large number of incubator companies
developing many of these new noble stylists making replicas of emotional
cars like the GT40, Boss Mustang, Daytona, Cobra, Avanti, 356, 550. I am
ashamed to have ignored their efforts in the past. Not anymore! Forget the
Loewy Foundation's Lucky Strike Award rewarding a lifetime of original
design. Let me propose that the auto industry create a new annual award for
derivative designers whose work best evokes the same style and emotion of an
original work - I suggest we call it the DEJA VU Award for Automobile
Design. And, I pray that the nightmare of original design and style will
soon end.


At 06:07 AM 7/15/2005, you wrote:



















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AVIS DE NON-RESPONSABILITE:
Ce document transmis par courrier electronique est destine uniquement a la personne ou a l'entite a qui il est adresse et peut contenir des
renseignements confidentiels et assujettis au secret professionnel. La
confidentialite et le secret professionnel demeurent malgre l'envoi de ce
document a la mauvaise adresse electronique. Si vous n'etes pas le
destinataire vise ou la personne chargee de remettre ce document a son destinataire, veuillez nous en informer sans delai et detruire ce document ainsi que toute copie qui en aurait ete faite.Toute distribution, reproduction ou autre utilisation de ce document est
strictement interdite. De plus, le Groupe Financiere Banque Nationale et ses filiales ne peuvent pas etre tenus responsables des dommages pouvant etre causes par des virus ou des erreurs de transmission.

DISCLAIMER:
This documentation transmitted by electronic mail is intended for the use of the individual to whom or the entity to which it is addressed
and may contain information which is confidential and privileged.
Confidentiality and privilege are not lost by this documentation having
been sent to the wrong electronic mail address. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and destroy this document as well as any copies of it. Any distribution, reproduction or other use of this document is strictly prohibited. National Bank Financial Group and its affiliates cannot be held liable for any damage that may be caused by viruses or transmission errors.
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