Lotus Elan

Output drive shaft Plus 2

PostPost by: "Jeff at tiscali&quo » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:49 pm

Hi All,
I am close to finishing the restoration of the Plus 2.
While I was taking off the offside rear suspension, I noticed that the
drive shaft was loose fitting into the bearing, this was noticed after
taking the wheel hub off. Thinking that obviously the bearing must be
shot, I pressed the shaft out, re newed both inner and outer bearings.
Putting it back together I noticed with horror that the shaft is exactly
the same in the outer bearing!! I have taken a picture of the shaft and
uploaded to the picture gallery. My question is this, do other plus 2's
have the step ground in the shaft where the output bearing would sit?
The inner race of my bearing is right over that step. I have some fears
that some one (P.O.) has fitted the wrong shaft in the past. I know I
am looking at ?150 new to replace (ouch)
Kind regards
Jeff ( nearly rebuilt +2)
"Jeff at tiscali&quo
 

PostPost by: "e s" » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:53 pm

Nice try, but nope. Happened to me, shaft us kaput. I too thought my bearings were going, but the grumbling was the exact failure you describe


----- Original Message -----
From: "***@***.***" <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Output drive shaft Plus 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:50:06 +0100


Hi All,
I am close to finishing the restoration of the Plus 2.
While I was taking off the offside rear suspension, I noticed that the
drive shaft was loose fitting into the bearing, this was noticed after
taking the wheel hub off. Thinking that obviously the bearing must be
shot, I pressed the shaft out, re newed both inner and outer bearings.
Putting it back together I noticed with horror that the shaft is exactly
the same in the outer bearing!! I have taken a picture of the shaft and
uploaded to the picture gallery. My question is this, do other plus 2's
have the step ground in the shaft where the output bearing would sit?
The inner race of my bearing is right over that step. I have some fears
that some one (P.O.) has fitted the wrong shaft in the past. I know I
am looking at ?150 new to replace (ouch)
Kind regards
Jeff ( nearly rebuilt +2)


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"e s"
 

PostPost by: "Jeff at tiscali&quo » Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:03 pm

Oh noooooooooooo. are you saying that the step in the shaft is caused by
the bearing wearing it away?
I'm confused, because I bought a load of spares with the car and the
spare drive shaft is the same. Is it possible this was removed because
it too was worn by the bearing???
JJ

e s wrote:

Nice try, but nope. Happened to me, shaft us kaput. I too thought my
bearings were going, but the grumbling was the exact failure you describe


----- Original Message -----
From: "***@***.***" <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Output drive shaft Plus 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:50:06 +0100

>
> Hi All,
> I am close to finishing the restoration of the Plus 2.
> While I was taking off the offside rear suspension, I noticed that the
> drive shaft was loose fitting into the bearing, this was noticed after
> taking the wheel hub off. Thinking that obviously the bearing must be
> shot, I pressed the shaft out, re newed both inner and outer bearings.
> Putting it back together I noticed with horror that the shaft is exactly
> the same in the outer bearing!! I have taken a picture of the shaft and
> uploaded to the picture gallery. My question is this, do other plus 2's
> have the step ground in the shaft where the output bearing would sit?
> The inner race of my bearing is right over that step. I have some fears
> that some one (P.O.) has fitted the wrong shaft in the past. I know I
> am looking at ?150 new to replace (ouch)
> Kind regards
> Jeff ( nearly rebuilt +2)


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PostPost by: nygroup » Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:14 pm

Just finished replacing both output shafts on my 69 Plus 2. One side
broke, so I replaced both sides with newer Sprint shafts (don't have
the step you describe as they were designed to handle more torque).
Replacing these as part of a resto with the half shafts off the car
is easy, but, alas...I had to remove them, replace the output shafts
and then put them back. Nice wrestling match with the shafts and
donuts, but once I figured out the proper sequence and had a tool to
compress the donuts, it went ok. I've posted the sequence in a
previous message if you need it.

steve



--- In ***@***.***, "e s" <[email protected]> wrote:
Nice try, but nope. Happened to me, shaft us kaput. I too thought
my bearings were going, but the grumbling was the exact failure you

describe


----- Original Message -----
From: "***@***.***" <[email protected]>
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Output drive shaft Plus 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:50:06 +0100

>
> Hi All,
> I am close to finishing the restoration of the Plus 2.
> While I was taking off the offside rear suspension, I noticed
that the

> drive shaft was loose fitting into the bearing, this was noticed
after

> taking the wheel hub off. Thinking that obviously the bearing
must be

> shot, I pressed the shaft out, re newed both inner and outer
bearings.

> Putting it back together I noticed with horror that the shaft is
exactly

> the same in the outer bearing!! I have taken a picture of the
shaft and

> uploaded to the picture gallery. My question is this, do other
plus 2's

> have the step ground in the shaft where the output bearing would
sit?

> The inner race of my bearing is right over that step. I have
some fears

> that some one (P.O.) has fitted the wrong shaft in the past. I
know I

> am looking at ?150 new to replace (ouch)
> Kind regards
> Jeff ( nearly rebuilt +2)


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PostPost by: BrianMartley » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:00 am

Hi Jeff,

Does the step look the same surface finish as on the middle part of the
shaft ? I ask because usually any wear from a bearing race should be
significantly different from the original ground finish.

How much slop is evident, loads or just a thou or so ? If the difference is
minor, then you can use Loctite Bearing Fit to take up small gaps - not a
bodge but a noted procedure on the Europa rear hubs.

If the shaft is worn, then maybe you could get them rebuilt by metal
spraying, quite a common procedure on pump shafts, etc - I'd guess you'll
find a local firm in most towns. Usually this is cheaper, it's certainly
worth calling in with the shaft and asking someone.

cheers

Brian
BrianMartley
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PostPost by: "e s" » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:10 pm

I would think this is possible. The bearing must press on the shaft, so a step is not possible.
Someone else here referencing a step was obviously referring to a diff output shaft, not an axle shaft.

And yse, it was smooth and polished like it was supposed to be there. Bearings is very hard




----- Original Message -----
From: "***@***.***" <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Output drive shaft Plus 2
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:04:28 +0100


Oh noooooooooooo. are you saying that the step in the shaft is caused by
the bearing wearing it away?
I'm confused, because I bought a load of spares with the car and the
spare drive shaft is the same. Is it possible this was removed because
it too was worn by the bearing???
JJ

e s wrote:

> Nice try, but nope. Happened to me, shaft us kaput. I too thought
> my bearings were going, but the grumbling was the exact failure
> you describe
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "***@***.***" <***@***.***>
> To: ***@***.***
> Subject: [LotusElan.net] Output drive shaft Plus 2
> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:50:06 +0100
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I am close to finishing the restoration of the Plus 2.
> > While I was taking off the offside rear suspension, I noticed that the
> > drive shaft was loose fitting into the bearing, this was noticed after
> > taking the wheel hub off. Thinking that obviously the bearing must be
> > shot, I pressed the shaft out, re newed both inner and outer bearings.
> > Putting it back together I noticed with horror that the shaft is exactly
> > the same in the outer bearing!! I have taken a picture of the shaft and
> > uploaded to the picture gallery. My question is this, do other plus 2's
> > have the step ground in the shaft where the output bearing would sit?
> > The inner race of my bearing is right over that step. I have some fears
> > that some one (P.O.) has fitted the wrong shaft in the past. I know I
> > am looking at ?150 new to replace (ouch)
> > Kind regards
> > Jeff ( nearly rebuilt +2)
>
>
> -- _______________________________________________
> NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple
> dating sites at once.
> http://datingsearch.lycos.com
>
>
>
>
> To search the mailing list archives:
> http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html
>
>
> http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/legal_stuff.shtml
>
>
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>
> * Visit your group "lotuselan
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lotuselan>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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"e s"
 

PostPost by: "Jeff at tiscali&quo » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:10 pm

Hi Brian,
The step is uniform, that's what threw me, it looked deliberate. I have
two shafts, one I hve just taken off, and one the PO took off. the PO
shaft is worn a lot less but without measuring them ( I left them at
work today) I can't say how much.
I was thinking of putting loads of weld on them and turning them down,
but I think there may be problems with making the shafts brittle with
the heat.
Any thing I decide will have to wait for a few weeks - off to FLA and
Vermont next week to be best man at a wedding!
Thanks for the tip on metal spraying... will follow that up.
Kind regards
Jeff

Brian wrote:

Hi Jeff,

Does the step look the same surface finish as on the middle part of the
shaft ? I ask because usually any wear from a bearing race should be
significantly different from the original ground finish.

How much slop is evident, loads or just a thou or so ? If the
difference is
minor, then you can use Loctite Bearing Fit to take up small gaps - not a
bodge but a noted procedure on the Europa rear hubs.

If the shaft is worn, then maybe you could get them rebuilt by metal
spraying, quite a common procedure on pump shafts, etc - I'd guess you'll
find a local firm in most towns. Usually this is cheaper, it's certainly
worth calling in with the shaft and asking someone.

cheers

Brian


"Jeff at tiscali&quo
 

PostPost by: M100 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:11 pm

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:50:06 +0100, "***@***.***"
<***@***.***> wrote:

My question is this, do other plus 2's
have the step ground in the shaft where the output bearing would sit?
The inner race of my bearing is right over that step. I have some fears
that some one (P.O.) has fitted the wrong shaft in the past. I know I
am looking at ?150 new to replace (ouch)

Assuming +2 and later 2 seat Elans (issue 18 uprights) are the same,
the hub location shaft taper runs into a parallel ground journal where
the outer bearing race fits, between the two bearings the shaft is
slightly undercut, at the inboard end there is another parallel ground
journal for the inner bearing slightly larger diameter than the
outboard one.

No doubt about it that shaft is well and truly knackered Jeff. Not
sure if I'd be happy running round with one that was recovered with
metal spraying though without a bit of NDT. Along with a few other
bits on the Elan it falls into the "Jesus Bolt" category.


Martin

72/45
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PostPost by: "Jeff at tiscali&quo » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:48 pm

Hi Martin,
Not sure what NDT and Jesus Bolt are, but I get your drift.
My Elan is going nowhere. I promised my wife faithfully that the ?3K I
have just spent on the restoration of "that knackered old car of yours"
was the end of it. I don't know how I'm going to hide ?155 + VAT +
delivery from her.
Maybe the metal spraying option would be a "stop gap" solution?
Kind regards
Jeff

Martin Evans wrote:


No doubt about it that shaft is well and truly knackered Jeff. Not
sure if I'd be happy running round with one that was recovered with
metal spraying though without a bit of NDT. Along with a few other
bits on the Elan it falls into the "Jesus Bolt" category.


Martin

72/45

"Jeff at tiscali&quo
 

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 pm

Jeff
Give spyder a ring I am sure they have plenty of second-hand good useable shafts in stock
(01733 203986)

John

"***@***.***" <***@***.***> wrote:
Hi Martin,
Not sure what NDT and Jesus Bolt are, but I get your drift.
My Elan is going nowhere. I promised my wife faithfully that the ?3K I
have just spent on the restoration of "that knackered old car of yours"
was the end of it. I don't know how I'm going to hide ?155 + VAT +
delivery from her.
Maybe the metal spraying option would be a "stop gap" solution?
Kind regards
Jeff

Martin Evans wrote:


No doubt about it that shaft is well and truly knackered Jeff. Not
sure if I'd be happy running round with one that was recovered with
metal spraying though without a bit of NDT. Along with a few other
bits on the Elan it falls into the "Jesus Bolt" category.


Martin

72/45






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PostPost by: M100 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:28 pm

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:49:30 +0100, "***@***.***"
<***@***.***> wrote:
Hi Martin,
Not sure what NDT and Jesus Bolt are, but I get your drift.

NDT - non destructive testing to see if the repaired part is ok to
detect cracks or flaws in the weld etc.

Usually with dye penetrant (on aluminium), or magnetic particles on
ferrous materials (magnaflux) If the budget is a bit higher or you
have access to a race team/industrial facility then you could use
ultrasonics or x-rays which can pick up deeper flaws.

Jesus Bolt - the single bolt in the middle holding a hang glider
together, if it catastrophically fails, as some did in the early days,
"Jesus" was one word that came to mind ;-)

My Elan is going nowhere. I promised my wife faithfully that the ?3K I
have just spent on the restoration of "that knackered old car of yours"
was the end of it. I don't know how I'm going to hide ?155 + VAT +
delivery from her.

Maybe the metal spraying option would be a "stop gap" solution?

It might be a long term solution but I know I'd be happier with a new
one in such a critical area. As for hiding the purchase then surely
that's what delivery to work or a mates house is for?

Martin

72/45

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PostPost by: "Jeff at tiscali&quo » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:54 pm

Thanks John,
I'll ring them tomorrow.
Jeff

JOHN CLEGG wrote:

Jeff
Give spyder a ring I am sure they have plenty of second-hand good
useable shafts in stock
(01733 203986)

John


"Jeff at tiscali&quo
 

PostPost by: type36lotus » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:16 am

I also believe the term was earlier applied to big nut which retains
a helicopter's main rotor to it's shaft, the Jesus nut. For the
exact same reason as stated below. Failure is catastrophic.

Mike G

--- In ***@***.***, Martin Evans <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:49:30 +0100, "***@***.***"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Hi Martin,
>Not sure what NDT and Jesus Bolt are, but I get your drift.

NDT - non destructive testing to see if the repaired part is ok to
detect cracks or flaws in the weld etc.

Usually with dye penetrant (on aluminium), or magnetic particles on
ferrous materials (magnaflux) If the budget is a bit higher or you
have access to a race team/industrial facility then you could use
ultrasonics or x-rays which can pick up deeper flaws.

Jesus Bolt - the single bolt in the middle holding a hang glider
together, if it catastrophically fails, as some did in the early
days,

"Jesus" was one word that came to mind ;-)

>My Elan is going nowhere. I promised my wife faithfully that the
?3K I

>have just spent on the restoration of "that knackered old car of
yours"

>was the end of it. I don't know how I'm going to hide ?155 + VAT
+

>delivery from her.

>Maybe the metal spraying option would be a "stop gap" solution?

It might be a long term solution but I know I'd be happier with a
new

one in such a critical area. As for hiding the purchase then
surely

that's what delivery to work or a mates house is for?

Martin

72/45

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PostPost by: davidallen » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:19 am

It is a very common engineering procedure to hard chrome plate undersize
shafts oversize and then grind to size.

We use the technique a lot when someone drops a clanger and provided the
bearing balls or needles do not run directly on the shaft, for example in
the gearbox.

If you are interested, I could find you the name of the company which would
do the operation.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Sent: 27 June 2005 20:56
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Output drive shaft Plus 2


Thanks John,
I'll ring them tomorrow.
Jeff

JOHN CLEGG wrote:

Jeff
Give spyder a ring I am sure they have plenty of second-hand good
useable shafts in stock
(01733 203986)

John







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PostPost by: "Jeff at tiscali&quo » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:43 pm

Hi David,
That would be most helpful.
Regards
Jeff.

ALLEN, David wrote:

It is a very common engineering procedure to hard chrome plate undersize
shafts oversize and then grind to size.

We use the technique a lot when someone drops a clanger and provided the
bearing balls or needles do not run directly on the shaft, for example in
the gearbox.

If you are interested, I could find you the name of the company which
would
do the operation.

David


"Jeff at tiscali&quo
 
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