Lotus Elan

Jet Hot Coatings

PostPost by: brassrngfm » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:51 pm

Elanistas -
I had my tubular headers coated at Jet-Hot, as I had experience with them
from when I was in the Air Force Materials Lab as a Lieutenant and they were
used on some Jet Engine parts. They are not simple insulators used to 'speed
up' flow - but work by being a ceramic coating that acts by changing the
emissivity of the metal. So yes - they do keep the engine bay cooler.
My problem was that very small pits in the tubing became bumps in the coating
which became potmarks and now three years after I had them coated - only
about 50% of the coating remains. Headers look like crap. I liked their
product, but would only do it to brand new absolutely clean headers. They
said they would clean my headers before coating them, but I now have my doubts
about how well it was done.
Lesson learned by me to your advantage, I hope. The stuff worked great on
jet engines - so it had to me a material prep problem.

Paint - used new acrylic two-part urethane primer and color coats with several
clear top coats - also catalyzed. Worked great. Did all of it myself, outside
without a spray booth, on nice still days. Used 3M products to sand out any
orange peel here and there followed by 3M polishers. Worked great, looks
great, no problems after (again) three years. I've used lacquers and acrylics
before over the years and will NEVER use them again. Personal opinion, though.
Do what you want to!
Paul Zimmerman
65 S2
brassrngfm
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Posts: 104
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

PostPost by: s2lola » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:01 pm

Paul et al,

FWIW, I've used Jet Hot (actually their Cdn franchisee) on several formula
car headers. Awesome and durable, cleanable, etc. But they were both new
headers, so surface prep wasn't an issue. The thing I like about it is that
both the outside and the INSIDE of the pipes are caoted - this seems to
extend pipe life considerably. On previous occaisions with thinwall
headers, we have burnt through (almost turning to dust) primary pipes that
had been wrapped - I hate header wrap as a result. My theory is that wrap
keeps heat in the metal, but the inner coating from a jet hot treatment
maintains a lower temp all the way through the cross section of the header
pipe.

Agree or disagree?

Cheers,
BT

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/06/21 16:51
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings



Elanistas -
I had my tubular headers coated at Jet-Hot, as I had experience with them
from when I was in the Air Force Materials Lab as a Lieutenant and they were
used on some Jet Engine parts. They are not simple insulators used to 'speed
up' flow - but work by being a ceramic coating that acts by changing the
emissivity of the metal. So yes - they do keep the engine bay cooler. My
problem was that very small pits in the tubing became bumps in the coating
which became potmarks and now three years after I had them coated - only
about 50% of the coating remains. Headers look like crap. I liked their
product, but would only do it to brand new absolutely clean headers. They
said they would clean my headers before coating them, but I now have my
doubts about how well it was done. Lesson learned by me to your advantage, I
hope. The stuff worked great on jet engines - so it had to me a material
prep problem.

Paint - used new acrylic two-part urethane primer and color coats with
several clear top coats - also catalyzed. Worked great. Did all of it
myself, outside without a spray booth, on nice still days. Used 3M products
to sand out any orange peel here and there followed by 3M polishers. Worked
great, looks great, no problems after (again) three years. I've used
lacquers and acrylics before over the years and will NEVER use them again.
Personal opinion, though. Do what you want to! Paul Zimmerman 65 S2






To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright(c) LotusElan.net and the author:

Yahoo! Groups Links







***********************************************************************************
AVIS DE NON-RESPONSABILITE:
Ce document transmis par courrier electronique est destine uniquement a la personne ou a l'entite a qui il est adresse et peut contenir des
renseignements confidentiels et assujettis au secret professionnel. La
confidentialite et le secret professionnel demeurent malgre l'envoi de ce
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strictement interdite. De plus, le Groupe Financiere Banque Nationale et ses filiales ne peuvent pas etre tenus responsables des dommages pouvant etre causes par des virus ou des erreurs de transmission.

DISCLAIMER:
This documentation transmitted by electronic mail is intended for the use of the individual to whom or the entity to which it is addressed
and may contain information which is confidential and privileged.
Confidentiality and privilege are not lost by this documentation having
been sent to the wrong electronic mail address. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and destroy this document as well as any copies of it. Any distribution, reproduction or other use of this document is strictly prohibited. National Bank Financial Group and its affiliates cannot be held liable for any damage that may be caused by viruses or transmission errors.
***********************************************************************************
s2lola
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Posts: 260
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPost by: lotuselan2 » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:43 pm

BT

Were the pipes you burnt through SS or mild steel?



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Tebbutt, Bill
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:01 PM
To: '***@***.***'
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings



Paul et al,

FWIW, I've used Jet Hot (actually their Cdn franchisee) on several formula
car headers. Awesome and durable, cleanable, etc. But they were both new
headers, so surface prep wasn't an issue. The thing I like about it is that
both the outside and the INSIDE of the pipes are caoted - this seems to
extend pipe life considerably. On previous occaisions with thinwall
headers, we have burnt through (almost turning to dust) primary pipes that
had been wrapped - I hate header wrap as a result. My theory is that wrap
keeps heat in the metal, but the inner coating from a jet hot treatment
maintains a lower temp all the way through the cross section of the header
pipe.

Agree or disagree?

Cheers,
BT

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/06/21 16:51
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings



Elanistas -
I had my tubular headers coated at Jet-Hot, as I had experience with them
from when I was in the Air Force Materials Lab as a Lieutenant and they were
used on some Jet Engine parts. They are not simple insulators used to 'speed
up' flow - but work by being a ceramic coating that acts by changing the
emissivity of the metal. So yes - they do keep the engine bay cooler. My
problem was that very small pits in the tubing became bumps in the coating
which became potmarks and now three years after I had them coated - only
about 50% of the coating remains. Headers look like crap. I liked their
product, but would only do it to brand new absolutely clean headers. They
said they would clean my headers before coating them, but I now have my
doubts about how well it was done. Lesson learned by me to your advantage, I
hope. The stuff worked great on jet engines - so it had to me a material
prep problem.

Paint - used new acrylic two-part urethane primer and color coats with
several clear top coats - also catalyzed. Worked great. Did all of it
myself, outside without a spray booth, on nice still days. Used 3M products
to sand out any orange peel here and there followed by 3M polishers. Worked
great, looks great, no problems after (again) three years. I've used
lacquers and acrylics before over the years and will NEVER use them again.
Personal opinion, though. Do what you want to! Paul Zimmerman 65 S2






To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright(c) LotusElan.net and the author:
http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/legal_stuff.shtml
Terms of Service.
'69 Lotus Elan +2 with Cosworth BDR
'84 Ferrari 400i
'94 Subaru SVX
'04 Audi allroad
lotuselan2
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Posts: 377
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Location: Shamong, NJ

PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:25 am

Jet hot style ceramic coatings will certainly protect headers better
from internal corrossion and provide some heat insulation to reduce
heat into the engine bay. Exhaust wrapping tape will provide better
insulation than the ceramic coatings and less heat loss into the
engine bay but no internal corrosion protection. However header
wrapping has an unjustified bad reputation

Internal header corrossion occurs through high temperature thermal
oxidation and spalling. If the mixture is lean at high revs / full
throttle then header life will be significantly reduced when wrapped.
However with the right carb set-up / mixture the conditions inside
the exhust header is neither too hot or too oxidative to have a major
effect on header life when wrapped. The header metal temperature
rise with wrapping is just not enough and oxygen levels too low to
get into the oxidation / thermal spalling regime for either stainless
or mild steel.

My experience with headers on my race car agree with the above
theory, they have been OK for the last 8 years wrapped with no
significant internal corrossion so far that I an detect. The
instances of short header life I have seen have all correlated with
too lean full power engine operation.

Rohan
In God I trust.... All others please bring data
User avatar
rgh0
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PostPost by: archigator » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:07 pm

I neglected to say that my headers are Jet-Hot coated and were still
hot enough to start my plastic washer hose and then, in-turn, the
fiberglass foot box on fire.

However, I had them coated by Jet-Hot about 8 years ago, and they still
look great. I'm very happy with them, as the original headers, prior
to coating, were looking rather grotty. I have heard of one other with
less favorable long-term appearance problems with Jet-Hot (that from an
ultra-picky Pebble Beach winner however), but I have been very pleased.

Gary
'71 Sprint Coupe
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PostPost by: s2lola » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:20 pm

Fair point. Mild steel.

Rohan may also have a point. The header pipes I referred to were on
formula ford. We do run these things pretty lean high up the rpm scale, and
if I recall correctly we taret exhaust probe temps of about 1250 degrees at
the head (on the dyno). Maybe the unusual combo of lean mix, high sustained
RPM (FF engines really only ever run between 6000 and 6800ish rpm), and mild
steel wrapped headers??????

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt

-----Original Message-----
From: Lotus [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/06/21 18:31
To: ***@***.***
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings


BT

Were the pipes you burnt through SS or mild steel?



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Tebbutt, Bill
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:01 PM
To: '***@***.***'
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings



Paul et al,

FWIW, I've used Jet Hot (actually their Cdn franchisee) on several formula
car headers. Awesome and durable, cleanable, etc. But they were both new
headers, so surface prep wasn't an issue. The thing I like about it is that
both the outside and the INSIDE of the pipes are caoted - this seems to
extend pipe life considerably. On previous occaisions with thinwall
headers, we have burnt through (almost turning to dust) primary pipes that
had been wrapped - I hate header wrap as a result. My theory is that wrap
keeps heat in the metal, but the inner coating from a jet hot treatment
maintains a lower temp all the way through the cross section of the header
pipe.

Agree or disagree?

Cheers,
BT

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/06/21 16:51
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings



Elanistas -
I had my tubular headers coated at Jet-Hot, as I had experience with them
from when I was in the Air Force Materials Lab as a Lieutenant and they were
used on some Jet Engine parts. They are not simple insulators used to 'speed
up' flow - but work by being a ceramic coating that acts by changing the
emissivity of the metal. So yes - they do keep the engine bay cooler. My
problem was that very small pits in the tubing became bumps in the coating
which became potmarks and now three years after I had them coated - only
about 50% of the coating remains. Headers look like crap. I liked their
product, but would only do it to brand new absolutely clean headers. They
said they would clean my headers before coating them, but I now have my
doubts about how well it was done. Lesson learned by me to your advantage, I
hope. The stuff worked great on jet engines - so it had to me a material
prep problem.

Paint - used new acrylic two-part urethane primer and color coats with
several clear top coats - also catalyzed. Worked great. Did all of it
myself, outside without a spray booth, on nice still days. Used 3M products
to sand out any orange peel here and there followed by 3M polishers. Worked
great, looks great, no problems after (again) three years. I've used
lacquers and acrylics before over the years and will NEVER use them again.
Personal opinion, though. Do what you want to! Paul Zimmerman 65 S2






To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright(c) LotusElan.net and the author:
http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/legal_stuff.shtml
Terms of Service.










To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright(c) LotusElan.net and the author:

Yahoo! Groups Links
s2lola
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 260
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPost by: brassrngfm » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:10 pm

Bill - Agree with your comments, although my interior coating appeared thinner
than outside, although it's normally only microns thick. I WOULD recommend
Jet-Hot, just make sure prep was immaculate. My was done by the home office
in Louisiana, as I recall.
Paul
26/4600
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Posts: 104
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PostPost by: lotuselan2 » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:42 am

Rohan

Thanks for explaining better than I tried to do in a few words.



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Rohan Hodges
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:25 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings



Jet hot style ceramic coatings will certainly protect headers better
from internal corrossion and provide some heat insulation to reduce
heat into the engine bay. Exhaust wrapping tape will provide better
insulation than the ceramic coatings and less heat loss into the
engine bay but no internal corrosion protection. However header
wrapping has an unjustified bad reputation

Internal header corrossion occurs through high temperature thermal
oxidation and spalling. If the mixture is lean at high revs / full
throttle then header life will be significantly reduced when wrapped.
However with the right carb set-up / mixture the conditions inside
the exhust header is neither too hot or too oxidative to have a major
effect on header life when wrapped. The header metal temperature
rise with wrapping is just not enough and oxygen levels too low to
get into the oxidation / thermal spalling regime for either stainless
or mild steel.

My experience with headers on my race car agree with the above
theory, they have been OK for the last 8 years wrapped with no
significant internal corrossion so far that I an detect. The
instances of short header life I have seen have all correlated with
too lean full power engine operation.

Rohan








To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

CopyrightC LotusElan.net and the author:





_____
Terms of Service.
'69 Lotus Elan +2 with Cosworth BDR
'84 Ferrari 400i
'94 Subaru SVX
'04 Audi allroad
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:27 am

> I recall correctly we taret exhaust probe temps of about 1250 degrees

Bill 1250 degrees F is hot enough with some oxygen present to get into
the high temperature oxidation / thermal spalling region. If you wrap
the pipe and have the steel near the exhaust gas temperature I would
expect a very short life. A good high temperature stainless steel such
as 316H or 321H grade would be better in these condtions.

Rohan
In God I trust.... All others please bring data
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PostPost by: s2lola » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:20 pm

Rohan,

Hence the value of the group!!!!! I believe that the headers we were using
at the time predated the ultra fine tuned FF engines (and hence temps) we
had moved up to. Turned to dust, you might say, and resulted in a DNF in an
otherwise reasonbly decent performance by an aging driver.

Thanks for the help.

BT

-----Original Message-----
From: Rohan Hodges [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 2005/06/23 07:28
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Jet Hot Coatings


I recall correctly we taret exhaust probe temps of about 1250 degrees

Bill 1250 degrees F is hot enough with some oxygen present to get into
the high temperature oxidation / thermal spalling region. If you wrap
the pipe and have the steel near the exhaust gas temperature I would
expect a very short life. A good high temperature stainless steel such
as 316H or 321H grade would be better in these condtions.

Rohan







To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright(c) LotusElan.net and the author:

Yahoo! Groups Links






***********************************************************************************
AVIS DE NON-RESPONSABILITE:
Ce document transmis par courrier electronique est destine uniquement a la personne ou a l'entite a qui il est adresse et peut contenir des
renseignements confidentiels et assujettis au secret professionnel. La
confidentialite et le secret professionnel demeurent malgre l'envoi de ce
document a la mauvaise adresse electronique. Si vous n'etes pas le
destinataire vise ou la personne chargee de remettre ce document a son destinataire, veuillez nous en informer sans delai et detruire ce document ainsi que toute copie qui en aurait ete faite.Toute distribution, reproduction ou autre utilisation de ce document est
strictement interdite. De plus, le Groupe Financiere Banque Nationale et ses filiales ne peuvent pas etre tenus responsables des dommages pouvant etre causes par des virus ou des erreurs de transmission.

DISCLAIMER:
This documentation transmitted by electronic mail is intended for the use of the individual to whom or the entity to which it is addressed
and may contain information which is confidential and privileged.
Confidentiality and privilege are not lost by this documentation having
been sent to the wrong electronic mail address. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately and destroy this document as well as any copies of it. Any distribution, reproduction or other use of this document is strictly prohibited. National Bank Financial Group and its affiliates cannot be held liable for any damage that may be caused by viruses or transmission errors.
***********************************************************************************
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