Lotus Elan

Paint

PostPost by: cusword » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:27 pm

I am about to start painting..............

I was told you can get celulose primer, and top coat, with an added
ingredient which makes it more flexible. All my local suppliers
say "you can't get it anymore", as they always do! Does anyone know
where I can get it in the UK?

Bye.......

David
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PostPost by: "nebogipfel2004" » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:38 pm

David, I'm not aware that you could ever get it for cellulose nor
would I think it was a good idea if you could!

Plasticiser additives are available for 2K paints but they are aimed
at the refinishing of very flexible items.

You cannot rely on paint to stop gel cracks showing up on your Lotus
shell. If the paint stayed wet it would still flow into the cracks and
you aren't gonna get paint more flexible than wet paint :)

Rest assured your car will crack long before the cellulose does

John
"nebogipfel2004"
 

PostPost by: "e s" » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:10 am

didn't see this to begin with

DON'T

Modern paint is far superior to the old stuff

It will stay shinier longer, and contrary to opinions here, will hold out stress cracks

When I stripped my +2 I found the enamel had cracked in many places and thegel was fine.

In the many places in the US laquer is no longer legal because of VOC's

Acrylic Urethane base/clear is the paint of choice for most cars. You don'tneed flex additives, the will shorten the gloss life of the paint.


You cannot get tints in any paint system that are the exact same as old ones, they just don't make them. Similar? sure. Even if you could get them, how would you know? have any paint chips stored in the dark in argon?

Grind out stress cracks and fill with polyester resin

use tissue glass to repair large areas

fill and block sand the whole car

prime with high build primer

block sand again

paint with base clear acrylic urethane

forget about it for 20 years

Old paint is like old oil

Would you run 30 weight from 1965?



wet sand and buff
----- Original Message -----
From: david_cusworth <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Paint
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:27:21 -0000


I am about to start painting..............

I was told you can get celulose primer, and top coat, with an added
ingredient which makes it more flexible. All my local suppliers
say "you can't get it anymore", as they always do! Does anyone know
where I can get it in the UK?

Bye.......

David


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PostPost by: triumphelan » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:32 am

I need to paint the rear valance [under the bumper] its White ,I think it`s "cirrus white" code L04,lotus part no AO36 B 6317V,supplier code 6070 2790 {PJ].
Is this a Ford colour ?,can I get it in an aerosole ?
Regards John S41969 DHC
Regards John 1969S4DHC
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PostPost by: "nebogipfel2004" » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:58 pm

"Modern paint is far superior to the old stuff" ...... True

"It will stay shinier longer" .....Also true :)

"and contrary to opinions here, will hold out stress cracks" ......

Absolutely NOT! Paint is purely a decorative coating and if the
substrate is damaged it will either sink into the cracks and look
horrible or crack.(Usually both) This applies to cellulose single pack
acrylics and 2K's equally.

I suppose a good thick layer of molten tar might work but it wouldn't
look very pretty.

I paint cars for a living and believe me if you could buy magic paint
I would! - I hate the hours of repair and preparation :(

John
"nebogipfel2004"
 

PostPost by: "e s" » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:02 pm

ntrary to opinions here, will hold out stress cracks" ......

Absolutely NOT! Paint is purely a decorative coating and if the
substrate is damaged it will either sink into the cracks and look
horrible or crack.(Usually both) This applies to cellulose single pack
acrylics and 2K's equally.






I disagree. I personally stripped my +2 to the gel coat and found many instances of both cracked paint with no cracked gel, and cracked gel with no cracked paint. Modern urethane paint can be more flexible than the 40 year old gel coat, and if so will tend to delay or diminish stress cracks. Lacquer is always less flexible than gel of any age, thus it will tend to make stress cracks look worse.

No magic involved

While my paint looks like crap[i used single stage, and it just does not hold up as well as base/clear] the only stress cracks on the car are from either physical damage[door edge, carbs hit hood, one parking bump] and the base of the windshield pillars. Had I been more meticulous in care, it would still look great 10 years after it was painted.

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PostPost by: "nebogipfel2004" » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:42 pm

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one :)

For the record base and clear (two-stage) paint does not confer any
advantage in terms of film strength over straight colour 2K paint. In
fact in some ways it may be less advantageous because the solvent used
is very aggressive and will actually find imperfections in the surface
and encourage sinkage.

The base coat is a very thin coat merely to provide the colour and the
clear is basically the same as straight colour without the pigments.

I suppose tiny gel imperfections might not damage the paint film
immediately but they will ....... rest assured they will

There is no substitute for doing the repairs properly and to rely on
paint as anything except colour is a folly.



John
"nebogipfel2004"
 

PostPost by: M100 » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:21 pm

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:02:13 -0500, "e s" <***@***.***>
wrote:

While my paint looks like crap[i used single stage, and it just does not hold up as well as base/clear]

Try telling owners of Lotus's painted by the factory mid 80's to early
90's that and see the reaction you get. The clearcoat on some cars
has been peeling off in sheets or getting water trapped between it and
the base coat across a wide range of colours causing milky spots.
Also the red colours have faded to pink.

I'm not sure exactly what the problem is but the paint used at the
time (ICI 2K) is what I used on my Sprint respray (non clearcoated)
and its so far been fine. Water repellant qualities rather than UV
resistance are more important in Yorkshire though ;-) Agree with
the rest of the views on 2 pack paint, cellulose might have been
acceptable on fibreglass in the 60's but its now way past its use by
date. On a metal bodied car where you can lay huge amounts of solvent
laden paint down it might be less of a problem.

Has anyone used the latest water based 2 pack primers and top coats on
their Elans?


Martin

72/45

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PostPost by: lotuselan2 » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:28 pm

I painted my car is a base coat - clear coat system and regretted it ever
since. My biggest issue was if you found an imperfection when the clear
coat went on. You were starting over on that section of the car. Single
coat PU is what I am redoing my car in; the hood and trunk are getting it
first to see how it all goes.



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of nebogipfel2004
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:43 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Paint



I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one :)

For the record base and clear (two-stage) paint does not confer any
advantage in terms of film strength over straight colour 2K paint. In
fact in some ways it may be less advantageous because the solvent used
is very aggressive and will actually find imperfections in the surface
and encourage sinkage.

The base coat is a very thin coat merely to provide the colour and the
clear is basically the same as straight colour without the pigments.

I suppose tiny gel imperfections might not damage the paint film
immediately but they will ....... rest assured they will

There is no substitute for doing the repairs properly and to rely on
paint as anything except colour is a folly.



John











To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

CopyrightC LotusElan.net and the author:





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PostPost by: "e s" » Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:37 pm

You will note I said nothing about not repairing correctly, or not repairing stress cracks. My point was that the inevitable stress cracks[especially in regular elan and europa] show much worse in lacquer than in newer style paints. If you do not spend the requisite hundreds of hours repairing the glass, you might as well paint it with a brush

The comments on my own care are related to retention of gloss and finish, not cracks etc
----- Original Message -----


From: "nebogipfel2004" <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Paint
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:42:35 -0000


I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one :)

For the record base and clear (two-stage) paint does not confer any
advantage in terms of film strength over straight colour 2K paint. In
fact in some ways it may be less advantageous because the solvent used
is very aggressive and will actually find imperfections in the surface
and encourage sinkage.

The base coat is a very thin coat merely to provide the colour and the
clear is basically the same as straight colour without the pigments.

I suppose tiny gel imperfections might not damage the paint film
immediately but they will ....... rest assured they will

There is no substitute for doing the repairs properly and to rely on
paint as anything except colour is a folly.



John





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NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple dating sites atonce.
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PostPost by: lotuselan2 » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:04 am

Peeling clear coat!!! Somebody did something wrong, very wrong. They
possibly waited more than 12 hours between base and clear coats. Go with
DuPont paints and good advice from their local dealer and you will NOT go
wrong.



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Martin Evans
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 6:22 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Paint



On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:02:13 -0500, "e s" <***@***.***>
wrote:

While my paint looks like crap[i used single stage, and it just does not
hold up as well as base/clear]


Try telling owners of Lotus's painted by the factory mid 80's to early
90's that and see the reaction you get. The clearcoat on some cars
has been peeling off in sheets or getting water trapped between it and
the base coat across a wide range of colours causing milky spots.
Also the red colours have faded to pink.

I'm not sure exactly what the problem is but the paint used at the
time (ICI 2K) is what I used on my Sprint respray (non clearcoated)
and its so far been fine. Water repellant qualities rather than UV
resistance are more important in Yorkshire though ;-) Agree with
the rest of the views on 2 pack paint, cellulose might have been
acceptable on fibreglass in the 60's but its now way past its use by
date. On a metal bodied car where you can lay huge amounts of solvent
laden paint down it might be less of a problem.

Has anyone used the latest water based 2 pack primers and top coats on
their Elans?


Martin

72/45

--





To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright) LotusElan.net and the author:





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PostPost by: grat » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:36 am

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 09:42:35PM -0000, nebogipfel2004 wrote:
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one :)

For the record base and clear (two-stage) paint does not confer any
advantage in terms of film strength over straight colour 2K paint. In
fact in some ways it may be less advantageous because the solvent used
is very aggressive and will actually find imperfections in the surface
and encourage sinkage.

The base coat is a very thin coat merely to provide the colour and the
clear is basically the same as straight colour without the pigments.

I suppose tiny gel imperfections might not damage the paint film
immediately but they will ....... rest assured they will

There is no substitute for doing the repairs properly and to rely on
paint as anything except colour is a folly.

John,
or others that might have an opinion ;)

any feedback on a paint system like http://www.autoaircolors.com

I've used it on small items (helmet, fiberglass seats) and
like the application method, and the results. I was thinking to use it
to paint the whole car. I'm planning on doing it in white with BRG
trim (mostly striping), with a (light brown/bronze tint) clear coat to
give the car a older looking patina. I'm taking it vintage racing so
stock reproduction is less important than general impression an ease
of repair and application.
The helmet was done about a year ago and has held up well to
knocks, cleaning bugs off of it, etc.

fj..
--
The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender,
religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down
inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.
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1969 S4 45/9297
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PostPost by: marcfuller » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:59 pm

Franklin, Your patina tint idea sounds great.

I think I might explore Autoaircolors soon. Probably do the bumpers to
start, see if I can find a good match for the wheel powder coat.

I have been used General Finishes water based clear high performance poly
on a Lotus dash and two Les Leston steering wheels this year in 10-15
coats. Very hard, smooth "feel" with great luster, depth, and easier
touch-up than varnish. I very much like the results, more than any
"conventional" lacquers, varnishes or oils I have ever used on this types
of items.

Recently also came across some test results of the water based finishes for
marine use which indicate that the water based coatings will last much
longer than conventional.





John,
or others that might have an opinion ;)

any feedback on a paint system like http://www.autoaircolors.com

I've used it on small items (helmet, fiberglass seats) and
like the application method, and the results. I was thinking to use it
to paint the whole car. I'm planning on doing it in white with BRG
trim (mostly striping), with a (light brown/bronze tint) clear coat to
give the car a older looking patina. I'm taking it vintage racing so
stock reproduction is less important than general impression an ease
of repair and application.
The helmet was done about a year ago and has held up well to
knocks, cleaning bugs off of it, etc.

fj..
--
The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender,
religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down
inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.
-- Dave Barry
-Marc '66 Elan DHC (36/6025)
http://www.lotuselan.us
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PostPost by: "nebogipfel2004" » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:30 pm

Franklin, I don't think it matters too much what paint system you use
if the shell is repaired well and primed with a good quality primer
(preferably 2K in my opinion) And everything is allowed to dry properly.

As I said in a previous reply, providing you regard paint as the
crowning glory you should be OK

For the record on fiberglass I think a solid colour 2K is better than
base and clear because you can minimise the solvents used and it also
tends to be more durable and of course there are no issues with
adhesion between the base and (clear)laquer (although this shouldn't
be a problem)

The issue of water based paints is one which comes up again and again
for environmental reasons. There were problems with it back in the
eighties. The laquer (clear) was very prone to damage from such things
as bird poo and it also had poor adhesion in some cases. It all went
quiet for quite a few years but my rep' dropped a leaflet in about
water based basecoats so I guess they are still around.

None of my contacts within the trade in the UK have used water based
automotive paints.

On the subject of cellulose, there is nothing wrong with it but I
would always recommend 2K primer because cellulose solvents are a
problem on 'glass. Celly will loose its shine and it is more prone to
damage than 2K.

The other problem with celly is that the big paint companies donot
really support it any more so the product and things like quality of
solvents are not nearly as good as they used to be.

I "cut my teeth" spraying celly but sadly that is now over 30 years ago :(

2K paint is a better product ....... filthy stuff to use ..... but
good paint!

John
"nebogipfel2004"
 

PostPost by: grat » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:28 am

On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 07:28:33PM -0000, nebogipfel2004 wrote:
Franklin, I don't think it matters too much what paint system you use
if the shell is repaired well and primed with a good quality primer
(preferably 2K in my opinion) And everything is allowed to dry properly.

Thanks for the reply on this. Do you have a second choice on
'good quality primer'? part of the attraction to the water based base
is not having to deal with anything as noxious as isocyanate. While I
do have a positive flow respirator I really don't want to mess with K2s
around a home shop.

As I said in a previous reply, providing you regard paint as the
crowning glory you should be OK

For the record on fiberglass I think a solid colour 2K is better than
base and clear because you can minimise the solvents used and it also
tends to be more durable and of course there are no issues with
adhesion between the base and (clear)laquer (although this shouldn't
be a problem)

The issue of water based paints is one which comes up again and again
for environmental reasons. There were problems with it back in the
eighties. The laquer (clear) was very prone to damage from such things
as bird poo and it also had poor adhesion in some cases. It all went
quiet for quite a few years but my rep' dropped a leaflet in about
water based basecoats so I guess they are still around.

I think most of the problems with this have been resolved with
the autoair by using polyu as a clearcoat. Their sales material states
that the base is porous and the clearcoat actually bonds with base. I
remember the first time I shot the base I was thinking there was no
way the clear was going to be smooth as the base was almost flat in
texture and sheen. But after about 3 light coats of polyurethane it
smoothed out nicely and I was pleased with the result once I got the
final (thing I did 5 total on the helmet, used a satin finish on the
seat as I was more concerned with just getting it sealed as only the
underside and back are visible.
I should mention to anyone planing on using autoair the heat
cure step is important (I use a hand held heat gun and it really
doesn't take that much time/effort to do) as unless it is put out in
the sun the basecoat won't cure well just air drying (even in my dry
Colorado climate). The base will lift with masking, etc unless it is
completely cured.

None of my contacts within the trade in the UK have used water based
automotive paints.

On the subject of cellulose, there is nothing wrong with it but I
would always recommend 2K primer because cellulose solvents are a
problem on 'glass. Celly will loose its shine and it is more prone to
damage than 2K.

The other problem with celly is that the big paint companies donot
really support it any more so the product and things like quality of
solvents are not nearly as good as they used to be.

I "cut my teeth" spraying celly but sadly that is now over 30 years ago :(

2K paint is a better product ....... filthy stuff to use ..... but
good paint!

I can't disagree with you John, most of the 'stellar' paint
jobs I've see use 2K. I'm just looking for something I can do myself
without a lot of setup and not have to worry about it.

fj..
--
The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender,
religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down
inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.
-- Dave Barry
1969 S4 45/9297
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