Lotus Elan

timing problem

PostPost by: Tim Dafforn » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:35 pm

Dear all,
Finally got the +2 out on the road after the winter lay up spent
installing electronic ignition, rebuilding the Dellortos and fitting the
Spyder rear seat belt system..
Took a bit to get the car going after its layoff (always been a bit hard
to get going and the initial guesses as to mixture/balance on the Dell's
were a bit out).
Tuned the car up using a CO analyser (to 3.5% CO @ 1000 rpm), carb
balancer and timing lights and took her out for a run. First
impressions, lots of coughing from the carbs, richened the mixture half
a turn, and things seem fine until I was out in the country, then upon
opening up the throttles there was nothing, no umph! so a quick
side-of-the-road tweak of the timing, and performance restored, had a
good run (big smile returns to face!). Got home, left the car overnight
and now she won't start. Turns over, fires once and then stops.
Sometimes fires in a way that seems to indicate that the engine is
pushing "back" against the starter.
Any ideas?
Would this be a sign of an over retarded ignition?
Haven't checked static timing yet, and can do dynamic as the engine
won't run..
(BTW which way do you turn the dizzy to advance the ignition, I can't
get to the manual at the mo!)
Also wondered whether trouble starting has something something to do
with the altered wiring to the coil with the Aldon ignition.
There were 2 wires to the +ve side one had 12v with the ignition on, and
the other nothing so I swapped the later with the feed for the Aldon, is
this wrong?
What is the other wire for?
Sorry for the long tail..
Thanks for any help
Cheers
Tim

--
Dr Tim Dafforn
MRC Fellow
Biosciences
University of Birmingham
Edgbaston
Birmingham
B15 2TT
(0121) 414 5881
Tim Dafforn
 

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:33 pm

If it seems to be pushing back against the starter it is over-advanced,not sure without looking,but if you can get the dizzy cap off it helps with rotation problems
John


Tim Dafforn <***@***.***> wrote:

. Got home, left the car overnight
and now she won't start. Turns over, fires once and then stops.
Sometimes fires in a way that seems to indicate that the engine is
pushing "back" against the starter.
Any ideas?
Would this be a sign of an over retarded ignition?
Haven't checked static timing yet, and can do dynamic as the engine
won't run..
(BTW which way do you turn the dizzy to advance the ignition, I can't
get to the manual at the mo!)
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PostPost by: "Tim Engel" » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:17 pm

From: "Tim Dafforn" <***@***.***>
Tuned the car up using a CO analyser (to 3.5%
CO @ 1000 rpm), carb balancer and timing lights
and took her out for a run. First impressions, lots
of coughing from the carbs, richened the mixture
half a turn, and things seem fine until I was out in
the country, then upon opening up the throttles
there was nothing, no umph! so a quick side-of-
the-road tweak of the timing, and performance
restored, had a good run (big smile returns to
face!). Got home, left the car overnight and now
she won't start. Turns over, fires once and then
stops. Sometimes fires in a way that seems to
indicate that the engine is pushing "back" against
the starter. Any ideas?


Unless you have to tune for emissions in your area, use a 4-tube manometer
and tune for peak vacuum (strongest vacuum) at idle.

With Dellortos, idle mixture screws usually end up 3 to 3 3/4 turns out
from lightly seated.


What you describe sounds more like the ignition is too advanced... by a
lot. Did the distributor come loose after the roadside tweak? Check the
static timing and let us know where it is.


(BTW which way do you turn the dizzy to advance
the ignition, I can't get to the manual at the mo!)

Looking at the top of the distributor,

The rotor rotates counter clockwise
Turn the distributor body clockwise to advance timing.
Turn it counter clockwise to retard timing


Also wondered whether trouble starting has something
something to do with the altered wiring to the coil with
the Aldon ignition. There were 2 wires to the +ve side
one had 12v with the ignition on, and the other nothing
so I swapped the later with the feed for the Aldon, is
this wrong? What is the other wire for?

I don't have a Plus 2 UK wiring diagram close at hand, and you didn't
mention what vintage, but generically speaking...

Are the two wires White, and White with Yellow stripe? White delivers
12V to the coil from the ignition switch via the tach (rpm sensing only).
It will be hot for normal running. It's not connected indirectly, but
goes to the ballast resistor first. The reduced voltage output from the
resistor goes to the coil V+ terminal... probably something in the 7 volt
range.

White/Yellow delivers 12V from the starter solenoid. It's hot only while
starting and bypasses the ballast resistor. That produces a hotter spark
during cranking when the starter's heavy draw would normally be pulling the
battery's voltage down.

Some after market performance coils are designed to perform without a
ballast resistor to deliver a hotter spark all the time. If you're running
without a resistor, then both will deliver 12v to the coil. Just at
different times.

I don't know what to tell you about the Aldon ignition wiring... post the
schematic to the Files section. But, of course, the engine requires
spark during both starting and running, and they are on separate circuits.

Good luck,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
"Tim Engel"
 

PostPost by: "tdafforn" » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:30 pm

Hi all,
Car is a '72 +2s130...
I guess the dizzy could have moved, although it seemed fine when I cam
home. Could have moved when I next tried to start the car to move it.
retarded the ignition a bit this evening and it seem to fire correctly
rather than in reverse.
However cam up against another problem, the starter began to give out.
turned the engine over at a reasonable speed until I gave the the
trottle a push to get some gas then it laboured badly. Had noticed
this before but it has got worse (one of the commutator (?)
connections is knackered as the starter stops altogether at times).
This was all done with jump leads from my other car so checked that it
wasn't dodgy lines from the battery by connecting up directly to the
starter.
When checking the wires supply in the coil the one I left connected
gave 12 volts with the ignition on would this be the ballasted one?
Thanks for the help
Cheers
Tim
"tdafforn"
 

PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:20 am

Retard - clockwise
Advance - anti clockwise
Arno

If it seems to be pushing back against the starter it is over-advanced,not sure without looking,but if you can get the dizzy cap off it helps with rotation problems
John
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PostPost by: "Brian Goodison" » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:12 am

--- In ***@***.***, "Arno Church" <[email protected]> wrote:
Retard - clockwise
Advance - anti clockwise
Arno,

I think you are getting mixed up there, the cam turns anti clockwise
and retard is the way of the cam (any car)
Retard - anti clockwise
Advance - clockwise
Regards Brian
"Brian Goodison"
 

PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:20 am

Oops - Red faced, Brian
You are right of course, the camshaft and engine turns clockwise but the distributor cam turns anti-clockwise
Thank heavens I now advance or retard the timing ( and the "jetting") with a laptop !!!
Arno



--- In ***@***.***, "Arno Church" <[email protected]> wrote:
Retard - clockwise
Advance - anti clockwise
Arno,

I think you are getting mixed up there, the cam turns anti clockwise
and retard is the way of the cam (any car)
Retard - anti clockwise
Advance - clockwise
Regards Brian








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PostPost by: "Brian Goodison" » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:38 am

--- In ***@***.***, "Arno Church" <[email protected]> wrote:
Oops - Red faced, Brian
You are right of course, the camshaft and engine turns clockwise
but

the distributor cam turns anti-clockwise

Yep, I think you have been watching the bath tub water turn the other
way down the sink or maybe its the brandy & coke!
Brian.
"Brian Goodison"
 

PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:53 am

--- In ***@***.***, "Arno Church" <[email protected]> wrote:
Oops - Red faced, Brian
You are right of course, the camshaft and engine turns clockwise
but

the distributor cam turns anti-clockwise

Yep, I think you have been watching the bath tub water turn the other
way down the sink or maybe its the brandy & coke!
Brian.

I am not as fortunate as some who can spend six months in the northern hemisphere and 6 in the south, to notice the difference in water running out of the tub
Secondly and more important , It's Ishqa bahar and soda, locally (in CapeTown) known as lessons ,not brandy and coke, I'll let you know!!! Jeff Wolfson can vouch for that.
Cheers
Arno











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PostPost by: TYPE45 at aol.com » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:45 pm

In a message dated 4/19/05 06:22:20 AM, ***@***.***es:

<< the camshaft and engine turns clockwise but the distributor cam turns
anti-clockwise >>

OK, not to belabor the point, but I believe that when you are standing in
front of the car, the crankshaft and all three cams turn clockwise. And when you
stand over the engine bay and look down at the distributor, the rotor turns
counter clockwise. So, I agree with Brian when he says that to advance the
timing, you should turn the distributor body clockwise. At least that's the way
the twin cam works in the northern hemisphere!

An interesting trivia question. Up until just a few years ago, all
production automobile engines rotated in the same direction with the exception of those
produced by what manufacturer? Anybody want to take a guess?

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota
TYPE45 at aol.com
 

PostPost by: "Brian Goodison" » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:51 pm

--- In ***@***.***, ***@***.***e:


An interesting trivia question. Up until just a few years ago, all
production automobile engines rotated in the same direction with the
exception of those

produced by what manufacturer? Anybody want to take a guess?

Honda?
Brian
"Brian Goodison"
 

PostPost by: roadterror » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:09 pm

Fiat?

From: "Brian Goodison" <***@***.***>
Date: Tue 19/04/2005 10:50 PM GMT+08:00
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] timing problem



--- In ***@***.***, ***@***.***e:

>
> An interesting trivia question. Up until just a few years ago, all
> production automobile engines rotated in the same direction with the
exception of those
> produced by what manufacturer? Anybody want to take a guess?

Honda?
Brian









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PostPost by: Arno Church » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:24 pm

Brian you beat me to it
It was Honda , in their Civic, Ballade etc range
but ......
the S2000 is turning clockwise (obviously standing in fron of the car!!!)
Arno
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Goodison
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] timing problem



--- In ***@***.***, ***@***.***e:


An interesting trivia question. Up until just a few years ago, all
production automobile engines rotated in the same direction with the
exception of those

produced by what manufacturer? Anybody want to take a guess?

Honda?
Brian








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http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html






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PostPost by: TYPE45 at aol.com » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:29 pm

Brian, you are correct sir! Just recently, Honda decided to join the rest of
the world and their new engine designs now rotate clockwise. I wonder if
there is a connection with this engine rotation direction, and their decision to
install their front wheel drive drive trains opposite of the way most (with
the possible exception of Fiat) manufacturers do. As opposed to other
manufacturers, most front wheel drive Hondas have the motor on the left with the
transaxle on the right.

No Lotus content you say? OK, here it is. Had Colin Chapman been born in
Japan, rather than England, your Elan would have been so inexpensive (relative
to other sports cars) and reliable that they would have sold hundreds of
thousands of them. Consequently, it wouldn't be nearly as collectable today. Maybe
he would have called it a Miata MX-5.

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota
TYPE45 at aol.com
 

PostPost by: "Sean Murray" » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:34 pm

Arno,

Ishqa bahar, now would that be uisce beatha manufactured in Saudi Arabia, or do you have Jameson or Bushmills down there ?

olc Club Lotus (Ireland) visited Bushmills distillery on a tasting trip last year !

Sean Murray
----- Original Message -----
From: Arno Church
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] timing problem





--- In ***@***.***, "Arno Church" <[email protected]> wrote:
Oops - Red faced, Brian
You are right of course, the camshaft and engine turns clockwise
but

the distributor cam turns anti-clockwise

Yep, I think you have been watching the bath tub water turn the other
way down the sink or maybe its the brandy & coke!
Brian.

I am not as fortunate as some who can spend six months in the northern hemisphere and 6 in the south, to notice the difference in water running out of the tub
Secondly and more important , It's Ishqa bahar and soda, locally (in Cape Town) known as lessons ,not brandy and coke, I'll let you know!!! Jeff Wolfson can vouch for that.
Cheers
Arno
"Sean Murray"
 
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