Lotus Elan

Any very rich boys in the group fancy goingracing??????

PostPost by: "Roger Sieling" » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:47 pm

G,

There are a number of members of this Elan list who also are members of HLR. I can tell you this: All Lotus Elevens have 3 digit chassis serial numbers, no more, no less, just 3 digits. No letters! If you will notice, there is no build date for this car, because the HLR do have very detailed chassislists with dates and most components listed.

The number listed, L11-56 sounds much to me like a number someone might devise for a car that may have history back to 1963, but either found it's wayout the side door of progress chassis company and perhaps Williams and Pritchard, but never left the front gate of 7 Tottenham Ln as a complete car or Lotus kit. Also, Lotus sold three models of Eleven; Sport, Club and LeMans. Clubman was a class of modified cars in English racing, long after the Elevens were built. Perhaps, not a Mini expert, I'm thinking there was a Mini Clubman model.

Further, the headrest on this car has nothing to do w/ LeMans specification. LeMans specification Elevens refer to mechanical components, namely Coventry Climax engine, 4 wheels Girling disc brake system, DeDion rear axle. A number of LeMans spec cars did not have headrests and the special cars actually run at LeMans had raised rear decks to better flow the air from the steeply inclined, full width windscreen, as well as a small headrest mount toit.

As far as rich, well, I believe the vendor was asking in the neighborhood of 80-90,000 GBP, and I think that is pretty steep for a car with history only back to 1963. Oh, and I don't think too many HLR experts would say the body of this car was designed by Costin. It is true that Frank did earlier designs for Lotus, but not the Eleven, although his infuence is certainly there.

Roger

>> ***@***.*** 3/15/05 9:22:07 AM >>>

Any very rich boys in the group fancy going racing??????.......and I
mean very rich......
Even though there is no advertised price I can imagine it being very
very very ....well just very very!!!!
Oh for a lottery win.......tomorrow!!!!
Cheers
G

1956 LOTUS XI SERIES 1 CLUBMAN


REBUILT & READY TO RACE FULL FIA PAPERS

And the blurb reads..........

Having consulted a copy of original Lotus records and specifications for
cars manufactured by the factory held by the Historic Lotus Register,
the Lotus Eleven Registrar has confirmed in a 20 August 2003 dated
letter, which is in the car's documents file, that chassis number L11-56
is indeed a Mark XI Club model. One of the first 50 of such two-seater
sports with wheel-enclosing bodywork designed by aerodynamicist Frank
Costin, it was manufactured at Colin Chapman's first factory at 7
Tottenham Lane, Hornsey, London, in 1956 and would have been registered
for road use at that time.
The 1956 XI Clubman specification consisted of Coventry Climax 1.1-litre
4-cylinder engine running on SUs, A30 gearbox with straight-cut gears,
rack and pinion steering, swing axle front suspension, live rear axle,
wire wheels and full width screen. Particular features for long distance
endurance racing owners included special lightweight bodywork
incorporating Le Mans style headrest, special enlarged front drum brakes
and twin fuel pump mountings. By the end of 1957, Lotus had set
international speed records and won the Index of Performance at Le Mans,
while the X1 totally dominated 1100cc sportscar racing.
Correspondence on file reveals that, having been advertised for sale in
Autosport, the then blue XI was sold 10 May 1963 by a Mr Beveridge of
Bearsden, Scotland, who retained the original Climax motor. Subsequent
owners listed in the FIA papers were M. McMamara of Eire, M. Alexander
and W. Woollet (1964-69), the car featuring prominently in Irish club
racing right through the mid to late 1960s, including a race at Phoenix
Park 21 July 1966. Other owners listed have been G. Percy, P. Dowty, P.
Morley, Julian Sutton (the resent Chairman of the Historic Grand Prix
Cars Association), Gerry Porter (1994) and then Julian Sutton again -
from whom Simon bought it.
When last restored to a very high standard during 1993/4, the chassis
was renewed with a Cyril Linstone fabricated frame to the same
specification and dimensions, though the 1956-made original (deemed to
have been unsafe for further racing) has been retained and is included
with the car. Currently fitted is the 1220cc Coventry Climax engine with
wet sump and twin SU 1 1/2in carbs which was rebuilt by Neil Twyman of
vintage Alfa and Lotus X1 Le Mans fame and this lovely engine is married
to a beautiful four speed gearbox which was completely rebuilt by Rae
Davis, the MG Midget man who was of course the nephew of S.C.H. Davis.
Andrew Tart, the specialist engineer who looks after Neil Davies's
Championship winning X1 as well, has restored and operated the car for
Simon, confirms that the front suspension has been rebuilt with
kingpins, bushes and ball joints all renewed, the Leda adjustable shock
absorbers all round are new and Alfin aluminium drums are fitted at the
front. All the Lockheed brake wheel cylinders and linings have been
renewed, all four wheels are new and are shod with Dunlop race tyres.
The chassic and bodywork has also been fully restored and the green
paintwork is extremely good with newly trimmed seats and dashboard. The
wiring loom has been renewed and the car does have a charging system and
lighting equipment for road use, although it is not currently road
registered.
Having been issued with the all-important FIA papers, it is ready to
race. It has taken part in the HGPCA sports car series and of course it
has been a regular entrant in the Gentleman Drivers series, going even
as far away as Estoril, as well as having taken the hill by storm at the
Ollon-Villars monumental hillclimb in Switzerland. It seems to be
invited everywhere and liked wherever it goes as because, although it
has been fully restored throughout and is in absolutely pristine
condition, it is still very original and unmolested - a rare treat. One
person who has had that treat is the legendary Willie Green who said
after driving the car at Donington: "It's an absolute joy to drive, very
stable and tremendously quick."
Please Note: We have received, just prior to this sale, a file of
paperwork relating to this car which shows all the previous owners from
1963 and photocopy of pictures from when it was discovered in Ireland
when owned by Paddings Dowling.







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PostPost by: theelanman » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:51 pm

roger
thanks for all that info.......hey I only copied the ad......I know chuff
all about XI's other than that if I had the spare cash I love to race
one........but I'm reckoning for me that could be another good few years away (or
never..more likely!!)
I just wondered if the group were interested.......as we all appear to be
interested in all things lotus wether completely original or modified to
certain extents
cheers
G
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PostPost by: "Roger Sieling" » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:11 pm

Bill,

You got the right idea, something like all 200 of the original 131 still exist. Elevens are that way too: All 456 of the original 270 still exist. There may actually be a few more 23s today, as I admit they would be a LOT of fun. You just gotta find a restoration project, then restore it yourself and those are even rarer today. Timing is also a big issue, as they say, it'severything. I couldn't even think about L11-56 on my budget, but knowing what I do, nor would I want to.

Roger

>> ***@***.*** 3/15/05 1:56:44 PM >>>

Hey Roger!

Your grip on all things XI is excellent! Myself, I could go for a 23
(except for the cash part), although WRT the 23 doesn't the saying go
something like ....."60 made, and only 120 survive today..."? LOL.

Cheers,
Bill



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PostPost by: "Martin Stuart" » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:44 pm

Roger,

I have to pick you up on a couple of points, here.

First of all, the Eleven most definitely was designed by Frank Costin. It was the last full car he did for Lotus, though he also had a hand in the Type 14 Elite.

Secondly, I think you are being unfair saying that the headrest has nothing to do with Le Mans specification. The vendor's description lists it as 'Le Mans style headrest'. Lotus' own brochure for the Eleven showed four variations of the car:
a) Le Mans: Climax engine, de-dion rear axle, disc brakes
b) Club: Climax engine, live axle
c) Sports: Ford 1172 engine, live axle
d) Hard top: quoted as being available on all models, but dubious production.

The brochure showed the Le Mans with 'single seater' bodywork - rigid tonneau and head fairing, and the works themselves used to refer to this arrangement as the 'Le Mans cockpit'. For this reason, it is common practice to refer to the single seater bodywork as being 'Le Mans style'. When the car was launched, Lotus did anticipate using the 'single seater' body form at Le Mans. The rules were changed before the car could race, however, banning rigid tonneaus, so in '56 the cars ran with full width V-screens and no headrest. Only in '57 did they use the Costin 'wrap-over' bubble screen, designed for use with inflatable tonneaus (not used in the race 'cos they restricted visibility), with raised rear deck and driver headrests that you mention.

It is never the less perfectly acceptable, common practice to call the 'single-seater' bodywork with headrest and metal tonneau 'Le Mans style'.

I agree that the price is steep, but before criticizing the fine detail of the description and casting doubt upon the car's provenance, I think you need to remember that the sort of people who can afford to indulge themselves with this sort of machinery are not necessarily obsessive Lotus anoraks. They often have lives with more important details to worry about, so the fact that they confuse terms like 'Club' and Clubmans' does not necesarily mean that the car is a fake!

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Sieling
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any very rich boys in the group fancy goingracing??????


G,

There are a number of members of this Elan list who also are members of HLR. I can tell you this: All Lotus Elevens have 3 digit chassis serial numbers, no more, no less, just 3 digits. No letters! If you will notice, there is no build date for this car, because the HLR do have very detailed chassis lists with dates and most components listed.

The number listed, L11-56 sounds much to me like a number someone might devise for a car that may have history back to 1963, but either found it's way out the side door of progress chassis company and perhaps Williams and Pritchard, but never left the front gate of 7 Tottenham Ln as a complete car or Lotus kit. Also, Lotus sold three models of Eleven; Sport, Club and LeMans. Clubman was a class of modified cars in English racing, long after the Elevens were built. Perhaps, not a Mini expert, I'm thinking there was a Mini Clubman model.

Further, the headrest on this car has nothing to do w/ LeMans specification. LeMans specification Elevens refer to mechanical components, namely Coventry Climax engine, 4 wheels Girling disc brake system, DeDion rear axle. A number of LeMans spec cars did not have headrests and the special cars actually run at LeMans had raised rear decks to better flow the air from the steeply inclined, full width windscreen, as well as a small headrest mount to it.

As far as rich, well, I believe the vendor was asking in the neighborhood of 80-90,000 GBP, and I think that is pretty steep for a car with history only back to 1963. Oh, and I don't think too many HLR experts would say the body of this car was designed by Costin. It is true that Frank did earlier designs for Lotus, but not the Eleven, although his infuence is certainly there.

Roger
"Martin Stuart"
 

PostPost by: theelanman » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:54 pm

dont forget there was NO PRICE MENTIONED..........
could be ?10k if its not an early one.......there again maybe not...........
I saw an advert and thought that someone may be interested........
it was more for the fact that it is an FIA hostoric motorsport approved car
therefore something must be original somewhere along the line.....otherwise
just stick a bike engine in it and use it on track days....or go to westfield
and buy there brand new XI kit for ?9k
can of worms spings to mind!!!
cheers
G
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PostPost by: "Martin Stuart" » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:00 pm

Indeed...sorry, I misread Roger's post and assumed there was a definite asking price of ?80-?90K, which would be very expensive for any Eleven, unless it had an exceptional race history.

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any very rich boys in the group fancy goingracing??????


dont forget there was NO PRICE MENTIONED..........
could be ?10k if its not an early one.......there again maybe not...........
"Martin Stuart"
 

PostPost by: twincamracing » Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:00 am

hmmm,
for:
nice story
good provenance
it is a real eleven
against:
originally road registered, not a racer
BMC engine, not climax
it is not original (it is a correctly restored example)
current exchange rate sucks for americans
it will sell for way to much driving up the price of all elevens
can't afford one anyway

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PostPost by: "Gareth Flanagan&quo » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:03 am

Scott
It does have a climax engine
<Currently fitted is the 1220cc Coventry Climax engine with wet sump and
twin SU 1 1/2in carbs which was rebuilt by Neil Twyman of vintage Alfa
and Lotus X1 Le Mans fame and this lovely engine>
it is not original...what isnt????.......
<the chassis was renewed with a Cyril Linstone fabricated frame to the
same specification and dimensions, though the 1956-made original (deemed
to have been unsafe for further racing) has been retained and is
included with the car>

Cheers
G





-----Original Message-----
From: scott potter [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 16 March 2005 01:00
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any very rich boys in the group fancy
goingracing??????



hmmm,
for:
nice story
good provenance
it is a real eleven
against:
originally road registered, not a racer
BMC engine, not climax
it is not original (it is a correctly restored example)
current exchange rate sucks for americans
it will sell for way to much driving up the price of all elevens can't
afford one anyway

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PostPost by: "Roger Sieling" » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:02 pm

G,

Yeah, maybe some glasses would be a good idea.

I will agree that this does have an "original" chassis, that comes along w/the car, but original what? There were lots of copy cats back then and Lotus did not make everything in house.

The language of the blurb is such that they never come right our and say that VFT or MM or RL of the HLR has certified that this is an original ElevenClub. They further skirt the issue by saying that it would have been one of the first 50 produced, but I'm sorry if my first post wasn't strong enough in saying that L11-56 is a FAKE NUMBER! It is obviously a fake number that someone later devised when they wanted to claim the car as a Lotus 11 made in 1956 . That may have happened in 1963, since there is no history from 1956 to 1963. The fact that it was road registered is not an issue. Most all sports racers of the day were road registered. Keith Hall, the team Lotusdriver with whom I'm most familiar, owned three Elevens and each was road registered. I can't remember, as I sit here, what the reg number was for his Ser 1 in 1956, but it had a 4 in it as did both of his Ser 2 Elevens BB44and 4DTN. Look at period race photos and you will see most of the field w/reg #s. Only exception are monoposto.

This car may actually have come out of Tottemham Lane works, but nothing I read in the blurb has convinced me of that. The actual add can be seen at: http://www.legendsracing.co.uk/details.asp?CarRef=28 . Oh, and I did remember the price incorrectly. They are asking 55,000GBP, still quite a hefty sum. While there, you might also look at the other expensive toys they have, especially the 26R and 20 FJr. This is all out of my league, even though I own an Eleven, a 20 and Elans.

I've been involved in adding 500 sq ft addition to my house over the last 2+ years. My den has become a catch all for all sorts of stuff that just hadto go somewhere, so my bookshelves are somewhat inaccesable. I can see my copy of Dennis Ortenburger's "Flying on Four Wheels", Frank Costin's biography, but it would take about a 1/2 hour to put it into my hand. I'll try todig it out over the next few days re: Costin's involvement in the Eleven'sdesign.

Roger

>> ***@***.*** 3/16/05 5:11:47 AM >>>

I do wish the group would invest in a pair of glasses......
It seem as though things are being assumed and misread.......it is an
original car...it has an original chassis from 1956 (even though its not
in the car as its too bent.....)....it has the history...
There was no price ever mentioned just assumed by someone......
It is registered and authenticated by the HLR...so whats the
problem.....
Just because its been used and its not 100% the same as it wobbled out
of the factory doesn't mean that its not what it says on the tin!!!.....
Hey if anyone has an elan that 100% as it came out of the factory and
still running I'll eat my hat.....if you've changed a fuse...or a spark
plug..or a gasket......does that mean that nothing is original...where
do you start and where do you stop........



-----Original Message-----
From: Gareth Flanagan [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 15 March 2005 14:22
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Any very rich boys in the group fancy going
racing??????



Any very rich boys in the group fancy going racing??????.......and I
mean very rich...... Even though there is no advertised price I can
imagine it being very very very ....well just very very!!!! Oh for a
lottery win.......tomorrow!!!! Cheers G

1956 LOTUS XI SERIES 1 CLUBMAN


REBUILT & READY TO RACE FULL FIA PAPERS

And the blurb reads..........

Having consulted a copy of original Lotus records and specifications for
cars manufactured by the factory held by the Historic Lotus Register,
the Lotus Eleven Registrar has confirmed in a 20 August 2003 dated
letter, which is in the car's documents file, that chassis number L11-56
is indeed a Mark XI Club model. One of the first 50 of such two-seater
sports with wheel-enclosing bodywork designed by aerodynamicist Frank
Costin, it was manufactured at Colin Chapman's first factory at 7
Tottenham Lane, Hornsey, London, in 1956 and would have been registered
for road use at that time. The 1956 XI Clubman specification consisted
of Coventry Climax 1.1-litre 4-cylinder engine running on SUs, A30
gearbox with straight-cut gears, rack and pinion steering, swing axle
front suspension, live rear axle, wire wheels and full width screen.
Particular features for long distance endurance racing owners included
special lightweight bodywork incorporating Le Mans style headrest,
special enlarged front drum brakes and twin fuel pump mountings. By the
end of 1957, Lotus had set international speed records and won the Index
of Performance at Le Mans, while the X1 totally dominated 1100cc
sportscar racing. Correspondence on file reveals that, having been
advertised for sale in Autosport, the then blue XI was sold 10 May 1963
by a Mr Beveridge of Bearsden, Scotland, who retained the original
Climax motor. Subsequent owners listed in the FIA papers were M.
McMamara of Eire, M. Alexander and W. Woollet (1964-69), the car
featuring prominently in Irish club racing right through the mid to late
1960s, including a race at Phoenix Park 21 July 1966. Other owners
listed have been G. Percy, P. Dowty, P. Morley, Julian Sutton (the
resent Chairman of the Historic Grand Prix Cars Association), Gerry
Porter (1994) and then Julian Sutton again - from whom Simon bought it.
When last restored to a very high standard during 1993/4, the chassis
was renewed with a Cyril Linstone fabricated frame to the same
specification and dimensions, though the 1956-made original (deemed to
have been unsafe for further racing) has been retained and is included
with the car. Currently fitted is the 1220cc Coventry Climax engine with
wet sump and twin SU 1 1/2in carbs which was rebuilt by Neil Twyman of
vintage Alfa and Lotus X1 Le Mans fame and this lovely engine is married
to a beautiful four speed gearbox which was completely rebuilt by Rae
Davis, the MG Midget man who was of course the nephew of S.C.H. Davis.
Andrew Tart, the specialist engineer who looks after Neil Davies's
Championship winning X1 as well, has restored and operated the car for
Simon, confirms that the front suspension has been rebuilt with
kingpins, bushes and ball joints all renewed, the Leda adjustable shock
absorbers all round are new and Alfin aluminium drums are fitted at the
front. All the Lockheed brake wheel cylinders and linings have been
renewed, all four wheels are new and are shod with Dunlop race tyres.
The chassic and bodywork has also been fully restored and the green
paintwork is extremely good with newly trimmed seats and dashboard. The
wiring loom has been renewed and the car does have a charging system and
lighting equipment for road use, although it is not currently road
registered.
Having been issued with the all-important FIA papers, it is ready to
race. It has taken part in the HGPCA sports car series and of course it
has been a regular entrant in the Gentleman Drivers series, going even
as far away as Estoril, as well as having taken the hill by storm at the
Ollon-Villars monumental hillclimb in Switzerland. It seems to be
invited everywhere and liked wherever it goes as because, although it
has been fully restored throughout and is in absolutely pristine
condition, it is still very original and unmolested - a rare treat. One
person who has had that treat is the legendary Willie Green who said
after driving the car at Donington: "It's an absolute joy to drive, very
stable and tremendously quick." Please Note: We have received, just
prior to this sale, a file of paperwork relating to this car which shows
all the previous owners from 1963 and photocopy of pictures from when it
was discovered in Ireland when owned by Paddings Dowling.







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PostPost by: twincamracing » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:20 pm

It does have a climax engine

Cheers Gareth, seems I am in need of a fresh prescription ;-)

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PostPost by: mikecauser » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:41 pm

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:02:04 -0500 Roger Sieling wrote:

I will agree that this does have an "original" chassis, that comes
along w/ the car, but original what? There were lots of copy cats back
then and Lotus did not make everything in house.

The chassis would have been made by Progress Chassis Co (Dave Kelsey),
and while there may have been one or two "extras", wholesale copying was
pretty rare in the 1950s.


The language of the blurb is such that they never come right our and
say that VFT or MM or RL of the HLR has certified that this is an
original Eleven Club.

".... the Lotus Eleven Registrar has confirmed in a 20 August 2003
dated letter, which is in the car's documents file, that chassis
number L11-56 is indeed a Mark XI Club model."

So has Vic confirmed it or not? If they are making this claim without
having such a letter they are guilty of misrepresentation.



...but I'm sorry if my first post wasn't strong enough in saying that
L11-56 is a FAKE NUMBER!

Yes, this is in fact a Good Thing. I am entirely in favour of the idea
that replica chassis are given numbers that are clearly non-original.
What we don't know is what number the old chassis carries.

(BTW, you said in another message that Lotus chassis numbers contained no
letters, but on page 13 of Graham Capel's book on the Eleven are photos
of three chassis plates that have the form "MK 11 123".)


.... there is no history from 1956 to 1963.

OK, but there would have been no point whatsoever in building an Eleven
replica in 1963. A Twentythree would have been a different case. I'm
happy that an Eleven turning up in Scotland in 1963 must have been a
proper Eleven from the 1950s.


The fact that it was road registered is not an issue. Most all sports
racers of the day were road registered.

IIRC _all_ sports racers had to be road registered (in the UK anyway).


Keith Hall, the team Lotus driver with whom I'm most familiar, owned
three Elevens and each was road registered. I can't remember, as I sit
here, what the reg number was for his Ser 1 in 1956,

YTN 444 (chassis 171).




This car may actually have come out of Tottemham Lane works, but
nothing I read in the blurb has convinced me of that. The actual add
can be seen at: http://www.legendsracing.co.uk/details.asp?CarRef=28 .
Oh, and I did remember the price incorrectly. They are asking
55,000GBP, still quite a hefty sum. While there, you might also look
at the other expensive toys they have, especially the 26R and 20 FJr.

Yes, very shiny aren't they all? And not at all in period spec. And
expensive. As the original poster suggested "rich boy's toys".


Mike
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PostPost by: john1180 » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:10 pm

I'd check with Vic Thomas of the HLR before any Eleven was considered. If it's real, he knows about it. John
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Causer
To: ***@***.***
Cc: ***@***.***
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Any very rich boys in the group fancy goingracing??????


On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:02:04 -0500 Roger Sieling wrote:

I will agree that this does have an "original" chassis, that comes
along w/ the car, but original what? There were lots of copy cats back
then and Lotus did not make everything in house.

The chassis would have been made by Progress Chassis Co (Dave Kelsey),
and while there may have been one or two "extras", wholesale copying was
pretty rare in the 1950s.


The language of the blurb is such that they never come right our and
say that VFT or MM or RL of the HLR has certified that this is an
original Eleven Club.

".... the Lotus Eleven Registrar has confirmed in a 20 August 2003
dated letter, which is in the car's documents file, that chassis
number L11-56 is indeed a Mark XI Club model."

So has Vic confirmed it or not? If they are making this claim without
having such a letter they are guilty of misrepresentation.



...but I'm sorry if my first post wasn't strong enough in saying that
L11-56 is a FAKE NUMBER!

Yes, this is in fact a Good Thing. I am entirely in favour of the idea
that replica chassis are given numbers that are clearly non-original.
What we don't know is what number the old chassis carries.

(BTW, you said in another message that Lotus chassis numbers contained no
letters, but on page 13 of Graham Capel's book on the Eleven are photos
of three chassis plates that have the form "MK 11 123".)


.... there is no history from 1956 to 1963.

OK, but there would have been no point whatsoever in building an Eleven
replica in 1963. A Twentythree would have been a different case. I'm
happy that an Eleven turning up in Scotland in 1963 must have been a
proper Eleven from the 1950s.


The fact that it was road registered is not an issue. Most all sports
racers of the day were road registered.

IIRC _all_ sports racers had to be road registered (in the UK anyway).


Keith Hall, the team Lotus driver with whom I'm most familiar, owned
three Elevens and each was road registered. I can't remember, as I sit
here, what the reg number was for his Ser 1 in 1956,

YTN 444 (chassis 171).




This car may actually have come out of Tottemham Lane works, but
nothing I read in the blurb has convinced me of that. The actual add
can be seen at: http://www.legendsracing.co.uk/details.asp?CarRef=28 .
Oh, and I did remember the price incorrectly. They are asking
55,000GBP, still quite a hefty sum. While there, you might also look
at the other expensive toys they have, especially the 26R and 20 FJr.

Yes, very shiny aren't they all? And not at all in period spec. And
expensive. As the original poster suggested "rich boy's toys".


Mike
--
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john1180
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